Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 17881 - 17900 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Dec 13, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
So, all you "spiritual" people think that humans are special?

Or an ape is also spiritual?

That is a serious question.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
This question was discussed in India at least 4,000 years ago. The answer then as evolutionary biologists agree now is yes, it has sentience just like us and no it's not the same as us. In terms of material life forms, we are the most intelligent. What we do with that intelligence, according to the spiritual traditions at least, determines whether we are just a smart animal or a spiritual being. Likewise, animals can rise above their normal level of intelligence and exhibet degrees of spirituality that match a human's or surpass it - think of a dog who runs into burning house to save baby while humans are too afriad to do so.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
Paul & DMT: The canvas is the constituting consciousness of sensory experience. . . . It is what physicists say it is.

Then what is consciousness, Paul?

Buddhists (and others) say that the canvas is emptiness (Dharmakaya, Shunyata), upon which awareness abides.

Consciousness arises with a body, but at the base is awareness. Aware of what? Emptiness.

The Dharmakaya is like space: wide open, like a cloudless sky, infinite, and the basis of everything. It is self-luminous, self-created, self-manifested, and self-originated. It is a single great dimension.

Awareness abides in and fully inhabits emptiness (the Dharmakaya). Both are inseparable from the other. All things are dharmas (in so many ways).

"What is the canvas?" is a really important question, Paul, for anyone who thinks they know, want to know, or understand consciousness and awareness. The hard part is to understand it cognitively but to see it, to live it.

(I'll bet this reads as complete gobbledygook. But it may be no more than string theory is either!)
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
So Jan, what you are saying is that spirituality is just another "feeling", and has nothing to do with God.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Dec 13, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
I'll bet this reads as complete gobbledygook. But it may be no more than string theory is either! (MikeL)

No, it's intriguing, as is string theory . . . apparently neither can be put to a "test."

Well, that's not entirely true: Max Tegmart posits a mathematical universe hypothesis that he claims is testable, but others disagree. Try to imagine a reality that is entirely mathematical structures - perhaps without any of the symbolism we use - then what would be the "emptiness" described in those scriptures? How does "no-form" fit with these platonic entities?
MH2

climber
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
What is left for you, above and beyond a glib guffaw?



When I first looked at that it just seemed strange. I tried to imagine a story where the writer describes a scene or action and then a character's reaction; "..., he glibly guffawed."

He guffawed glibly?

Maybe the way Goofy would?

After all, JL has said he dashes these posts off, and he isn't too fussy about spelling or logic.

However, it came to me that the phrase is just like the brilliant two-odd-word pairings that are found in the short reviews of cultural events in the early pages of each New Yorker issue:

The band gave a glib guffaw of a performance.
Her colors splash across the canvas in a glib guffaw.
The photos of banal and ordinary objects are a glib guffaw behind the back of pretension.


He's got a knack for writing.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
And by the way - what went bang so long ago?

You don't have the faintest clue so why are you asking me like it can be answered? You wouldn't even know about it unless some meat brains informed you. Now you parrot their explanation, hone in on that one thing and declare Ah HAH!!!!! Is this the 'you have to do the work' part you were talking about?

OK I'll answer it. The universe was born the same way you were. Bang. Done. I don't care how many layers you peel back there are more layers.

Got any other simplistic questions, I'll answer it with my meat brain.

Sheesh.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
To make soup a cook is required ......

There it is again, the big bang who cooked it? Who made the cook? Its circular logic and a waste of time to ask it given you can't answer it either.

None of you can. And certainly not Indians from 4000 years ago.

Given the tools of the day... 'do the work' to find this answer? You're gonna find it with astral travel of the mind, fine. WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

'You have to do the work!" Its such bullsh#t. You claim to have done the work Werner. Who made the cook?

Circle back to me on that.

I respect folks who say, I don't know. But if you do, then tell me, what made the thing that made the cook? Hmmm? That ball bounces in both directions, takes you no where.

Resume yalls woowoo. Maybe my meatbrain will be more receptive the 1500th time you repeat your circular reasoning. But don't hold your breath.

But I reckon if any human entity is to answer that question it sure as hell ain't gonna be some guy sitting in a dark closet thinking of nothing.

DMT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
So Jan, what you are saying is that spirituality is just another "feeling", and has nothing to do with God.

not Jan, but yep


now watch stupid Werner get all red faced and come unglued, sputtering and speculating....

stupid bitter old man wondering around Yosemite talking to himself and his stupid homo duck
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
moosedrool, that's not what I said at all.

If spirituality were just a feeling, then America would have become an enlightened nation after taking psychedelics, the hope of many hippies at the time. Obviously it's more than that.

The religions of Asia do however, show us that you can be spiritual without believing in an individualized creator God. Neither Taoism nor Buddhism believe in such a God and Confucianism doesn't think such a God if he/she exists, is important for human life.

Meanwhile, the eastern masters, such as the Dalai Lama, go on showing spirituality to the world. How do they do it? By first changing their own hearts and minds through spiritual practices and then manifesting compassion to the world. The DL walks into a room and people feel happy. He has "it". He also keeps up a grueling schedule working tirelessly on behalf of Tibetan culture and people.

Another intriguing guru, is a woman in south India who simply communicates by hugging hundreds, sometimes thousands of people all day, one after the other, transferring her love and acceptance to them. Thousands of westerners travel to India to stand in the hot sun and be hugged by unconditional love.

Other masters spend their life in prayer or meditation for the welfare of the world. Their spirituality is simply being in a better and more selfless frame of mind than the rest of us.

The present Pope not only has told people to stop being judgemental about those who are different or have gone against church teachings, but to work actively (sacrifice time and money) to help the poor and work for a more just international system. He's also done practical things like clean up the corrupt Vatican bank.

Spirituality in whatever form is a whole lot more than just warm fuzzy feelings. It has to be put into action.

moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
I guess I don't understand the difference between spirituality and empathy, Jan.

Spiritual dogs. Hmm
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 13, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
So let me understand this jan...given your 'you have to do the work' aspect of spiritualism? How does 'doing the work' manifest itself in a gorilla? In a beagle? In a praying mantis?

Thank you in advance.

DMT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 13, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Other masters spend their life in prayer or meditation for the welfare of the world. Their spirituality is simply being in a better and more selfless frame of mind than the rest of us.

sounds noble

but seriously Jan, surely you are not contending that there is ANY evidence that someone simply spending their personal time in prayer or meditation has mitigated hunger, ended suffering, or
even indirectly caused either a positive or negative outcome, correct?

or by your statement, you believe prayer or meditation actually "works" for the "welfare of the world" as you put it?

if so, how exactly, given that there have been carefully controlled studies proving conclusively that prayer, even intensively and very directed prayer, has zero proven related outcome?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 13, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
DMT, the entire point of asking unanswerable questions is to get past the false belief that EVERY unanswerable question is in fact a trick question, and to experience, directly, that our discursive minds are limited. Then something else might open up for you.

What's volleying around on this thread from a few of us is a tradition that has gone on for centuries. If you can get in step with the glib guffaw (and yes, those Loooking Glass constructs are intentional), things might shift. Till then, dig your heels in and rant away. We're all guilty as charged.

Now what?

The cow never really jumped over the moon.

JL

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 13, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
and to experience, directly, that our discursive minds are limited. Then something else might open up for you.

Keeping in mind that the non-discursive mind is likewise limited---as amply demonstrated daily by its crusading proponents. Not surprising for a way of thinking and experience that identifies "emptiness " as a destination.

For the so-called "discursive " mind to miraculously detect its limitations is no big deal---it is a fact of life and is normally called :"learning".
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Dec 13, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
It looks like the only difference between us and other animals is that we are the only species on this planet that are delusional.

;)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 13, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
only difference between us and other animals

No , there are lots of other differences, quite obvious and stark.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 13, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
Good questions moodrool and DMT and I've heard multiple answers over the years. Some would say of course, that the difference is the source of the empathy, whether evolved animal empathy or some sort of extra empathy coming from a higher source. Others would say that the animals are more spiritual in the sense that they just do, without thinking about it, whereas humans with all our conniving cleverness have to relearn through spiritual practice what we once knew and forgot. Mostly I think we haven't got a clue.

Take the female chimp who picked up and guarded a small child who fell into its pen, keeping aggressive male chimps away from it. Was that displaced maternal instincts, the fact that the female chimp had lived with humans at one time, or a chimp that was at a higher level of consciousness than average? I think no one knows. Personally, I have a higher opinion of many animals than many people, but that's just me.
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Dec 13, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
What differences are you referring to, Mr. Trotter?

Edit: Let's say a baby is raised by a monkey. Would it become human, or a monkey as an adult?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2013 - 12:02am PT
What differences are you referring to, Mr. Trotter?

Well, for starters our DNA is different. Shall I go on?

Would it become human, or a monkey as an adult?

Tarzan was always a human . He was Homo sapiens sapiens
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