Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 13, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
There you go. You seek your path and I'll seek mine and we can talk about our experiences here and elsewhere. I will not require you to walk in my shoes in order to tell you what it's like, however.

And I can't help but remark... 'do the work' sounds an awful lot like 'try prayer' or other forms of, I'll call them meditation.

Aren't they all pretty much the same thing, or at least (supposedly) tapping the same well spring?

When we get to the belief stage I believe life is pervasive and all encompassing. I think the universe is a life form and it is composed of smaller life forms, and they of smaller still. I'm pretty much on my own planet in this regard however.

Beyond the veil darkly lies more life. But not mine.

DMT

WBraun

climber
Dec 13, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
So .... Life comes from life and not from some soup by chance.

To make soup a cook is required ......
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 13, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
Yeah, some cook.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 13, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
No no... "Life comes from life and not from some soup by chance" just now came from WBraun by intention... Just see...
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 13, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
To make soup a cook is required...

Yes, but you stuck in the work "make" which begs the question.

Plus, it's idiotic to think of primordial soup in the same way one thinks of a nice chicken soup. The meaning of the word does not require a cook, a bowl, a spoon, or anything else human-like or god-like. Heck, lava can be called soup and it's just melted rock. No cook required there either.

For a guy who thinks that he is enlightened, you sure have a limited imagination. Imagining God is just taking the easy way out because you don't get stuck having to learn or understand anything complex. You just sit back and spout out platitudes.

I want to repeat this just so it is clear. the argument you made about soup is IDIOTIC.

Dave

FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 13, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
To make soup a cook is required...

Yes, but you stuck in the work "make" which begs the question.

Finally! Properly "begging the question"!
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 13, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
A classic kong-an presented to the person who is attached to emptiness or to check if they are attached to emptiness is:

A person comes to the zen center smoking a cigarette, walks into the dharma room drops ashes on the buddhas head and blows smoke in his face.

Your job is to get him to understand that this is not correct style at the Zen center.

He has attained that everything is made from the same substance (atoms) , and everything is the same so buddha, ashes, smoke, dharma room are all the same; so there is no problem with dropping ashes on the buddhas head; as a matter of fact if you think there is he thinks you are attached to form.


No matter what you say to him he hits you with a big zen stick and tells you to wake up!

How can do you approach this person effectively and communicate with them.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 13, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
I'm not answering your question PSP, but "effectively" can only be seen by the "effect" - your intended effect - You can ignore him, you can tell him you don't like what he's doing and ask him what motivates his behavior, you can thank him and clap him on the head, or you can drop ashes on his head and blow smoke in his face.

What's the question?
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Dec 13, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
About reality.

Threre is no such thing like "objective reality". That fact was established by Einsten a 100 years ago.

It has nothing to do with God, of course, but it looks like there is a lot of confusion here about the nature of the Universe. Nobody can ever know how an electron looks like, because it doesn't have a "look". Our senses and the instruments we have are useful, but that's all they are. They just describe relations about objects; "this is as green as the other one" or "this is twice as big", but there is always reference to something. If I move relative to you, my "reality" will be different than yours. There is no objective observer/observation. There is no "objective reality".

Sorry, DMT

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 13, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
How muCH per acre to you get for that reality?

DMT
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 13, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
What's the question?
Your right Marlow, I didn't communicate the question. The question is how do you get them to see that they are attached to emptiness and that their view is not the whole view?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 13, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
PSP

Thanks for clapping me on the head...

Jgill: hehe... one hand is enough... one fingers is enough... yes even a written word... lol...
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Dec 13, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Thanks for clapping me on the head...


With one hand?


No matter what you say to him he hits you with a big zen stick and tells you to wake up!

This come perilously close to occasional comments on this thread . . . but verbal rather than physical sticks (which may or may not exist outside one's consciousness)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 13, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
They don't really beat you with those "zen sticks." They give you little love taps between the shoulder blades, and when they come, you usually welcome them.

Anything that jolts one out of his or her rut, story, perspective presents a meditation or a contemplation right there on the spot. The meditation is something to the effect of: "what is this?" The contemplation is something to the effect of: "stay here in this groundlessness. Relax; don't run or hide."

Even waking up in the morning with a hangover can bring awareness. Pain does the same thing; both can be clarifying.

That's what an effort / practice is about: clarity, one-pointed mindfulness, letting go of preconditioned notions and seeing things as they are (manifestations).

I could be dreaming that 6 billion other souls inhabit this place called a planet and all of you are figments of a turtle's dream. But its not. If the experiences are real then so too is the canvas upon which those experiences transpire.

I think you're conflating experience and "things." Not the same.

Of course, you cannot deny or doubt your experiences. The "canvas" . . . "upon which those experiences transpire" is, . . . er, . . . what?

What is the canvas?
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 13, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
JG said; This come perilously close to occasional comments on this thread . . . but verbal rather than physical sticks (which may or may not exist outside one's consciousness)


Yes i noticed that as I wrote it.

Attachments are very difficult to break through because that is the way you are experiencing the world. Largo is pointing out our attachment to name and form .

A beginer kong-an about attachment to name and form is:

The teacher places a watch in front of you and asks what is this ? and if you say it is a watch you are wrong and if you say it isn't a watch your wrong!

In the Kwan um school the first answer is always to hit the floor which is the absolute view (emptiness) answer . The next answer is the after emptiness answer.

That's where if you tell her it is a watch and you are wrong.


Th e point is if you are attached to something it will be a hinderance and the point of practice is to percieve your attachments and work to be come unattached and unhindered.



paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 13, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
The canvas is the constituting consciousness of sensory experience. It is the Kantian forms of sensibility. If the experience is ontologically real then the sensory forms are as well and it is then perfectly logical to assume the phenomenological elements experienced share that same ontological reality. How could they not? IMHO.
WBraun

climber
Dec 13, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
The root problem of all living entities in the material world is their attachment to the material body.

We are not the material body.

Thus the brain is never ever the source of consciousness that the foolish neural scientists believe.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 13, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
And those words are one of the many ways WBraun materializes...
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 13, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
I think you're conflating experience and "things." Not the same.

You're putting words in my mouth.

All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be = experience, not 'things.'

The canvas is what physicists say it is. At least they can back it up with testable theories.

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 13, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be = experience, not 'things.'

But if you listen to the so-called "blockhead" school of materialism, all experience is an emergent function of a thing, namely the evolved meat brain, which they believe with all their heart and soul "creates" experience via a kind of inner hemispherical electrical storm, the only default for the blockhead being a God or wuwu agency who creates said sentience. this a logical conclusion, that the meat brain can create fundamentally unlike anything else in the universe. Pretty much the same way that a cow can eat green grass and - viola. We gots white milk.

Ain't that how the how dadio works? There's experts who can prove it.

And by the way - what went bang so long ago?

JL
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