Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 17801 - 17820 of total 23223 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MH2

climber
Dec 11, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
discursive [mind] only handles things


In case anyone missed this.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 11, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
"Are you saying that you, personally, Paul, would ignore your personal experiences for the dictates of reason?"

Yes, as in I don't aim the spear at the fish where my sensual experience tells me it is but rather where I deduce through reason the actual location of the fish is, taking into account what I reason to be the refraction of the water.


Paul. Why stop there? You came to distrust or at any rate question your sensual experience, and this led you to reason. Push ahead, my brother. Question reason as the end-all (incomprehensible to the discursive), and invite the next movement in the process - which is not a backslid into sensual experience, or a default to "God," beliefs, faith, or illogical speculations. That's just discursive blowback, which is what you are questioning as genuine.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 11, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
Good one, Reilly!
MH2

climber
Dec 11, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
7 April 2013

As I've said 1,000 times, this is not a quantifying exercise
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 11, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
Have you heard of the holiday dragon...




Christmas in the Book of Revelation — I
Revelation 12

Christmas cards often show the baby Jesus in the warm glow of a humble stable. But Pastor Greg Laurie says Christmas ultimately represents a battle . . . a spiritual battle between the forces of light and darkness.
http://www.harvest.org/radio/listen/2013-12-10.html?autoplay=1



Christmas in the Book of Revelation — II
Revelation 12

Somewhere between "Silent Night" and "It's Beginning to Look a lot Like Christmas," we may have lost sight of what Christmas represents. That's Pastor Greg Laurie's concern. It's an important reminder that the baby Jesus is God's Son sent to pay the ultimate price for our sin.
http://www.harvest.org/radio/listen/2013-12-11.html?autoplay=1

jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Dec 11, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
A divertissement from the "What is Mind" babble.

I just produced this with my new Liberty Basic programming language. This is an example of "weak emergence", for I had no idea what might appear after I wrote the graphics program and ran it. The complex function is a "fixed-point" continued fraction (something I invented for my own explorative enjoyment). Also, this is an instance of supervenience, arising from a moderately complicated mathematical procedure.

A certain fixed-point continued fraction after 10 approximants over [-...
A certain fixed-point continued fraction after 10 approximants over [-6<x<6], [-6<y<6] in the complex plane. An example of "weak emergence"
Credit: jgill


And, yes, Jake considers himself very much a human being.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 11, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
Wonder why my eyes were drawn to the middle of that graphic, that black dot. And the space it occupies. Very cool JG.

JL
MH2

climber
Dec 12, 2013 - 12:06am PT
this is an instance of supervenience


Oh My God.


Looks like the thorns to the Calabi-Yau manifold rose.



Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
One of the interesting things about supervenience, as opposed to what's known as "knucklehead reductionism," is that the direction of casuality is believed to run both ways. For instance, in philosophy, supervenience "generally describes cases where (roughly speaking) the lower-level properties of a system determine its higher level properties." But as the chart shows below, some suggest a top-down causal chain is also at work.

Supervenience
Supervenience
Credit: Largo

The whole "direction of influence" debate is a heated one that generally stalls out when hard causes are solely attributed to antecedent factors, meaning after the fact, when the shebang is over, should we have sufficient data, we can reverse anything back to (fill in the blank).

JL
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 12, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
Between living things and social groups is a wide range of organisms...Where's the cut-off? Should be easy for an anthropologist......maybe.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 12, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
A wide range of scientists are looking at the behavior and the cognitive processes behind them of other intelligent animals, concentrating of course, on primates, elephants, whales, and dolphins. Lawsuits over the personhood of chimpanzees and the right to autonomy of these animals indicates the interest goes beyond academia. Then there are all the interesting studies of the intelligence of certain birds which perform way beyond what one would expect from the size of their brains. The movement for the ethical treatment of farm animals mirrors this. In the end, I suspect a century from now, that a rather Buddhist perspective on animals will prevail - that they all have sentience and deserve respect. There will no doubt be many more vegetarians as well.

In teaching students who have never been exposed to evolution before, I've always found that the study of primates was the best way to begin the course, including field work at a local zoo. Observing and intuiting something and then encountering the theory behind it is often the most effective form of teaching.

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 12, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
And once again, I seem to perceive things differently than others. Of course I noticed the center of John's beautiful photo and immediately made the connection with what one sees in meditation as did Largo. However, most of my attention was spent on the counterclockwise flow of the pattern. This is of course the way we are taught to look at Japanese flower arranging and Japanese gardens and landscape paintings.I wish I knew if I always looked at things differently or if my perception was altered by my immersion in Japanese arts.
MH2

climber
Dec 12, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Ha ha. A timely role reversal.

JL takes an objective lesson from supervenience. My experience was subjective. Rather like that of the test pilot who in the early days of aviation was told to take a new plane up and put it into a steep dive to see if he could notice any problems.

"The first thing I noticed was that both wings fell off."



Supervenience sounds simple:


A set of properties A supervenes upon another set B just in case no two things can differ with respect to A-properties without also differing with respect to their B-properties.



But if you need any further evidence that people are crazy, just have a look at where they have taken this.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/supervenience/



And for downward causation go to an expert.

http://webspace.utexas.edu/deverj/personal/test/disturbingmatter.pdf
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 12, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Biofeedback is the surefire and incontrovertible way for people to experience how mind influences biology.

Most of don't need any such drills, realizing as we do that, reaching back to when little Sheila (or in Fruity's case, little Shane) walked across the room in 6th grade and we suddenly drew an erection, or when we look at a run out slab and get sweaty palms, what we think stirs the biological embers - ergo top (head) down causation. Or so the argument runs . . .

JL
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 12, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
"After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it" -- "I refute it thus."
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 12, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
Argumentum ad lapidem.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 12, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
The psychological and iconographic significance of the image created by JGill has been predictably overlooked .
Despite its interesting mathematical congruities and the sexy notion of "supervenience" the image contains a modern version of the Mandala.

What sort of psychological implications can be drawn from the mandala?
Let's accept that they do contain an overarching deep psychological component , in the interest of exploration.(As opposed to a purely culturally representational meaning)
For the sake of brevity I'll touch on just on just one idea promoted by one of the world's most creative scholars, Carl Jung , from his book Memories, Dreams,Reflections :

"I sketched every morning in a notebook a small circular drawing,...which seemed to correspond to my inner situation at the time....Only gradually did I discover what the mandala really is:...the Self, the wholeness of the personality, which if all goes well is harmonious." pp 195 – 196.

"Only gradually did I discover..." means that Jung researched the primary meaning of the circle in the psyche (the circle is the primary psychogenic element in the mandala) , and what he considered the reoccurring thematic role that circles play in the symbolic collective and individual life of humans:

Jung recognized that the urge to make mandalas emerges during moments of intense personal growth. Their appearance indicates a profound re-balancing process is underway in the psyche. The result of the process is a more complex and better integrated personality. As Jungian analyst Marie Louise von Franz explains:
"The mandala serves a conservative purpose—namely, to restore a previously existing order. But it also serves the creative purpose of giving expression and form to something that does not yet exist, something new and unique….The process is that of the ascending spiral, which grows upward while simultaneously returning again and again to the same point.[26]
Creating mandalas helps stabilize, integrate, and re-order inner life.[27]

Credit: Ward Trotter

Credit: Ward Trotter








Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 12, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Giving credit, both Largo and I recognized its similarities to a mandala seen in meditation. Anyone who meditates can begin to recognize that the symbols of the world's religions from sand paintings to domes came first from vistas within the mind. Even the colors they appear in are proscribed (hint: not pink). Another mandala within that photo is the balance of light and dark, so familiar to Taoist symbology as the yin and yang.

Mandalas are frequently seen in nature as well, the photos of the Hubble telescope being the most impressive recent examples. A basic assumption by eastern religions is that what is seen internally is a microcosm of a larger pattern and that all are holistically integrated into a master plan. A more scientific way of looking at it would be that the universe operates according to mathematics of which mandalas, including those of evolved life forms are an expression.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 12, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
There is an interesting sycncrity between the eastern mandala and western perspective in that both offer a contemplation of the route to salvation.

The midpoint of the mandala as the point beyond all duality and an escape from the cycle of becoming, and similarly during the Renaissance the notion of orthogonal lines meeting at the vanishing point in paintings of the Annunciation represented the track/course to the open door of redemption and salvation. In Leonardo’s depiction of that subject that point is the safe harbor of souls.

East meets west in the perception of the problematic nature of duality.
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 12, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
The psychological and iconographic significance of the image created by JGill has been predictably overlooked .

It's a solution surface. That's all it is. It doesn't have any meaning beyond that. If the mind wants to adorn it with crenulations, swirlies, gold leaf, and sequins, that's cool. But then the original context disappears completely: it ceases to be what it is and is now some psychological icon....a fairy, a painting, a song....whatever. A myth.
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