Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 17721 - 17740 of total 22697 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
WBraun

climber
Oct 15, 2013 - 10:47am PT
Ron Anderson -- "Perhaps it ISNT you who guides you there."

Just see.

This man has intelligence .....
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 15, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
That's how you find a T Rex bone or a pear tree or a girl.

Just when I was starting to get interested in meditation I get told its so-called "discursive"
motivations that finds the chicks.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 15, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Just when I was starting to get interested in meditation.

If you were actually interested in meditation you would have uncoiled the rope already, so to speak, and cast off instead of just eyeballing the first moves. But if you're actually keen, let me know where you are and I'll find a likely dood to stating beating on you with the bamboo staff.

Oh yeah . . .

JL

Meditation Music
Meditation Music
Credit: Largo
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 15, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
The Deadly Gentlemen Cover Woody Guthrie's "All You Fascists Are Bound to Lose"
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 15, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Credit: Ward Trotter

Hey, where do I "Jine" up? (Join up)

I would go but I just can't decide what to wear...

http://www.nowness.com/day/2013/9/21/3352/up-and-out?icid=MTL_1_2115
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 15, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Hey, was up all night with this book:

Credit: Ward Trotter

http://www.amazon.com/Daily-Rituals-How-Artists-Work/dp/0307273601

Kafka is one of 161 inspired—and inspiring—minds, among them, novelists, poets, playwrights, painters, philosophers, scientists, and mathematicians, who describe how they subtly maneuver the many (self-inflicted) obstacles and (self-imposed) daily rituals to get done the work they love to do, whether by waking early or staying up late; whether by self-medicating with doughnuts or bathing, drinking vast quantities of coffee, or taking long daily walks. Thomas Wolfe wrote standing up in the kitchen, the top of the refrigerator as his desk, dreamily fondling his “male configurations”. . . Jean-Paul Sartre chewed on Corydrane tablets (a mix of amphetamine and aspirin), ingesting ten times the recommended dose each day . . . Descartes liked to linger in bed, his mind wandering in sleep through woods, gardens, and enchanted palaces where he experienced “every pleasure imaginable.”

The great Danish philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard , cracked me up on this one:
He would work in the mornings, then in the afternoons he would take monster walks, and in the evenings start back to work again, but not before a light supper with a bottle of fine sherry.
After the sherry he would instruct his assistant to select a coffee cup and saucer from his vast collection of same.
Once the assistant selected the cup Soren would then require the assistant to explain in detail why he chose that particular cup.
Once satisfied with the explanation , Kierkegaard would then pour sugar to the top of the brim, followed by as much strong black coffee as possible. He would then drink the dark syrupy mixture without saying a word, reveling in the sharpening sensation as this bizarre decoction hit the fine sherry still dwelling in his innards.
Then and only then would he commence his early evening work ---part of the what would turn out to be the extensive ground work of modern existential thought.


Beethoven would start to work at 5 am. --- but only after having his ground coffee from precisely 60 coffee beans--- which he would meticulously count out one by one.

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 15, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
In other words, there's no set formula for creativity.

Meanwhile an article on the human propensity to feel a presence outside of oneself and what this means for religion.I couldn't help but think also of the third man phenomenon.

This week the online New York Times is open to everyone, not just subscribers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/15/opinion/luhrmann-conjuring-up-our-own-gods.html?hp
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 15, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
In other words, there's no set formula for creativity.

Perhaps not ,but there are, as the British paper The Guardian pointed out

there’s still some emerging patterns: like being a morning person, not giving up your day job, taking long walks, sticking to a schedule, learning to work anywhere,

A lot of creative people are surprisingly very routine as regards their work. Many take long walks. They tend to stick to a schedule.
Creative folks that happen to be less disciplined in some of these regards end up never producing a body of work that endures.
But there are exceptions, such as F.Scott Fitzgerald in his later years, who was too busy drinking, carousing, and clubbing to stick to any schedule. And his writing suffered accordingly, by his own admission.

It is interesting to note that even Hemingway, who could drink a dozen people under the table,
could arise very early the next morning, after only a couple hours sleep,fresh as a daisy, and write for several hours.He was miraculously unfazed by hangovers.
He wrote The Old Man And The Sea under such as regimen
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 15, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
As a night person, I question the morning conclusion. Perhaps what both morning and night people share is a period of time when others are less likely to interfere with their creativity. Have you ever heard of an afternoon person? Afternoons coincidentally are the time of day when both morning and night people are awake and interacting.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 15, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
As a night person, I question the morning conclusion.

The conclusion was drawn from the type of biographical information of over 160 creative people profiled in the book.
Whereas I think the poet WH Auden was a little harsh in stating:
only the Hitlers of the world work at night, no serious artist does

And this from a serious artist who routinely used Seconal and Amphetamines.

Nonetheless there are creative dynamos who work at night. Most of whom are bona fide insomniacs.
But you hit upon a valid observation when you suggested some artists work at night to avoid distraction. I think it was Flaubert who often worked at night--in the kitchen of all places--to avoid confrontation with a house full of family members and in-laws.LOL

Many of the creative people worked in the afternoons, as a continuation of their morning work.
A few worked exclusively in the afternoons---mostly very late arisers.

Here's a reviewer's excerpt of the writing schedule of Sylvia Plath:

Credit: Ward Trotter

Such a great spirit in Sylvia Plath.


There is an additional point worth making as regards this morning/night person aspect.
Many of the individuals profiled in the book lived in the centuries before the electric light.
Consequently it was often problematic to be up during the darkest hours, from an illumination and economic standpoint.
We know that Beethoven often complained of the cost of candles and oil for lamps, as did Dumas.
In the era of electric light we tend to not fully appreciate the hassle associated with unreliable sources of illumination and heat during long dark nights of earlier times---especially during winter months.



PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 15, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
Here is a quote from a very famous japanese zen master who worked in the monastery kitchen and I think may have been illiterate? and then he became one of the most famous zen masters (centuries ago).

“To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.”

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Oct 15, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#325578

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 15, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
Nonetheless there are creative dynamos who work at night. Most of whom are bona fide insomniacs.
--

Sleep disorders are almost a benchmark of creative types. Many self medicate with booze, pot and whatever else they can get their paws on. Eventually these measures cause even greater disruptions till the person is ruined. Strangely, minor (I mean very minor) does of meth or ADD drugs like Adderal help these symptoms, sometimes amazingly so, at no decrease in creativity. It boils down to a poorly regulated CNS. Breath-focused meditation (deadly boring for many) can do wonders in reinstating balance to the nervous system but the process is very slow. But often profound.

JL
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 15, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
Sleep disorders are almost a benchmark of creative types. Many self medicate with booze, pot and whatever else they can get their paws on. Eventually these measures cause even greater disruptions till the person is ruined (JL)

Well, it certainly doesn't pay to be creative! A downward spiral to extinction of mind. Wait . . . isn't that what we are supposed to do? I am confused.
WBraun

climber
Oct 15, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
Creativity is not rooted in the mind.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 15, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
Sleep disorders are almost a benchmark of creative types.

Not true.
You did not read my posts on this matter.
I was establishing the fact that only a minority of the creative types profiled in the book I referenced were night workers , or night persons.

The majority of creative , productive people had no outstanding sleep problems.
Many went to bed around 10 pm and arose around 5-6 am. Like Beethoven, for instance.

Insomnia was not a problem or a distinguishing characteristic among the very creative profiled in this book. Nor was chronic depression, or outstanding pathologies of any sort.
What was a distinguishing characteristic among the creative ,productive types was routine scheduling, morning habits, and whatever lifestyle choices advanced the desire to work at what they loved doing and were committed to.

Remember, these people are the leading lights of western civilization over the last 300 years, not a bunch of drug soaked rock bands or rap gangstas grabbing their croches every 10 minutes, or a gaggle of artist -loft types lying around huffing cocaine and pissing away dad's money waiting for their next existential crisis.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 15, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
The majority of creative , productive people had no outstanding sleep problems.


This has not been my experience at all. Not even close, and this is drawn on grad school therapeutic environments in clinical psych. Addictions also run high in creative types. Perfectly adjusted, early to be types rarely crank out great art.

JL
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 15, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
Interesting discussion by Ward and JL.
I'm not sure about the answer but I bet they are both correct.

Creative people are almost always very driven and often tormented.
Don't most folks have demons that haunt them?

But you also can't underestimate the perfect machine who goes to be early and just kicks ass with no problems.... Although I'm having a hard time coming up with someone like that who isn't sort of boring ...

I dunno ... Would actually be a very good study ..

As a nurse I'm close to the inner thoughts of more people than I care to remember.
I can't think of anyone who gets in the fire who doesn't also get burnt..

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 15, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
This has not been my experience at all. Not even close, and this is drawn on grad school therapeutic environments in clinical psych. Addictions also run high in creative types. Perfectly adjusted, early to be types rarely crank out great art.

You are conflating "perfectly adjusted" to "early to bed types."
Perfectly adjusted has nothing to do with it . Arising early in the morning, or at whatever time, to write or paint or compose within a structured , established routine is a biographical fact generally shared amongst the major creatives profiled in this book ---not a bunch of creative "types" identified by a psychology test somewhere.
These were people who were identified as creative because they actually created major works of art, literature, or science over a lifetime.

The traits that emerged when looking closely at their creative , productive lives was the establishing of a hard-headed approach to productivity in their chosen field. Not because they are rigid, well-adjusted drones---but because this level of commitment is what is inflexibly required to achieve what they are driven to achieve, and what they love doing,or are compelled to do.
The result: much of the great works of creativity over the last several centuries.

I'm not sure about the answer but I bet they are both correct.

I am right about this Riley. There is no real argument here.
I challenge anyone to do a biographical analysis of the creative lives of the individuals profiled in this book that I referenced.
If you were to come to any other conclusion you would be superimposing your own private cherished idea of what constitutes the daily ,mundane , underlying, generalized process that is fundamental to creating major works of art over a lifetime.

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 16, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
I think Ward is spot on about not being able to judge the issue for the creative types before the introduction of electricity.I read an interesting article recently about the split sleep of many people before electricity in which they went to bed early to escape the cold and dark and then lay awake for several hours in the middle of the night thinking, creating, praying, and sometimes reading by candle light, before going back to sleep for another 6-7 hours. Likewise, the village Sherpas slept 12 hours in the winter and 10 in the summer. In Kathmandu they read, watch TV, send emails and post on Facebook in the evenings instead.

I think my own night owl habits were formed by being bored in school all day, then doing boring homework, and only after dinner, being able to read interesting books and do creative projects. For years, when I was put to bed at 9 pm I secretly read in a closet until midnight or 1 am by the light of a 40 watt bulb which may have contributed to my near sightedness. I went to school dead tired but it didn't matter as most of it was so monotonously taught to the lowest level anyway.In high school I volunteered for the graveyard shift as it was cooler, quieter, and less work in a nursing home then. Not surprisingly, I later spent 35 years teaching in night school - work hours 8pm to midnight. I am not an insomniac, but sleep like a log for 8 hours if left undisturbed.

We are all creatures of habit as Largo keeps insisting.
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