Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 17661 - 17680 of total 22787 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MH2

climber
Oct 11, 2013 - 05:34pm PT

A woman sits at the front of the bus. She is in one of the seats that face the aisle which are intended for old or handicapped persons. The woman is 68. Her hair is a mix of blond and gray. Her face has a friendly outward look under a tan. Perhaps it was the trips to cold summits that weathered the skin of her forehead into furrows. Laugh lines radiate from her eyes. Her eyes are the color of space.

A mother enters the bus pushing a child in a stroller. The sitting woman smiles and talks to the child. The child laughs. Was the woman trying to tell the child about snow, cold, pain, joy, the Path of the Mountain? No.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 11, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
That's the "me" that's gotta go (JL)

One spiritual perspective. There are others. Is yours the correct one?


I'd be interested in hearing about any viable spiritual practice that does not acknowledge that separating from the core ego self (we can never get rid of it nor would we want to), the aforementioned "me," is an essential if fundamental step along the way, lest we keep seeing reality at the level of the ego, ruled as it is by conditioning and biology. This is mirrored in age old notions of seeking something, any damn power or (fill in the blank) that is "greater then our selves."

Our sleep is assured through bondage to self. Getting out of self is a concept that can never be fully understood while one is still in it, ergo whatever ground one covers beyond self will be interpreted as an accomplishment of self, or something the discursive mind can get hold of and evaluate as right or wrong, spiritual of pagan, as it seeks furiously to find a loop hole in the logic of it all, not realizing that the whole self paradigm is most often the thing hindering progress.

Probably doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense but that's the best I can do with it right now.

JL
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 11, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
I'd be interested in hearing about any viable spiritual practice that does not acknowledge that separating from the core ego self (we can never get rid of it nor would we want to), the aforementioned "me," is an essential if fundamental step along the way, lest we keep seeing reality at the level of the ego

OK. Guess your answer is that unless one sits for years under strict tutelage (i.e., viable), we are hopelessly stuck in the viscosity of the ego. And my experiences were clearly not viable. Your religion is the one true religion. Can't argue with that. If generations of Zen masters testify to the truth of their practices, they must be correct. Oh wait . . . that sounds slightly biblical.

. . . self paradigm is most often the thing hindering progress

Some would question your use of the word "progress". It could be regress.
WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
What is the endpoint.

The end point is to become a right wing republican zombie christian and shut the govt down, start wars all over the planet,
fuk up the environment, shove all our Bullsh!t down everyone's throat and dogmatize the world and kill millions of people.

Do I have it right? .....

:-)
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 11, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
. Our sleep is assured through bondage to self. Getting out of self is a concept that can never be fully understood while one is still in it, ergo whatever ground one covers beyond self will be interpreted as an accomplishment of self, or something the discursive mind can get hold of and evaluate as right or wrong, spiritual of pagan, as it seeks furiously to find a loop hole in the logic of it all, not realizing that the whole self paradigm is most often the thing hindering progress.

Probably doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense but that's the best I can do with it right now.

It sounds good JL and I think it's a very respectable life goal.
But in the end we still don't really know and all the thinking is still a construct of imagination.
There is nothing to anchor any of this to that can't be explained by the mind's musings.

What is the meaning of life ?
We live, we die , no reason ? No purpose.., who knows
But unless everything on the planet that shares our DNA also is encompassed in some greater spiritual truth there doesn't seem to be a greater reason for it all.
It does end up being pretty much another religion built on spiritual mysticism.
And it seems that the same human mechanisms and ego devices that are at play here are at play in all other religions as well. Which are, I know better than you and I have seen a higher purpose that is absolutely correct.

Once again I'm left looking and my doggy and I can't honestly see any difference except a few extra neurons and some grey matter.

Certainly many unanswerable questions though and you do one hell of a job of trying to answer some of them.
Gives me much to ponder.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 11, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
Do I have it right? .....

Nope.

Wrong again.
Mimi

climber
Oct 11, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
No, WB, you don't have it right. But that's okay. We'll always have the Rostrum.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 12, 2013 - 12:35am PT
A rain-wet wbraun on a rail-fence
is better than ten Angels in the Kingdom of Heaven...
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 12, 2013 - 01:11am PT
Interesting article in the New York Times today about the Dalai Lama establishing science as part of the Tibetan monastic curriculum and the difficulties of translating technical terms into Tibetan.

A Bridge Between Western Science and Eastern Faith





go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Oct 12, 2013 - 06:46am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#325157
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur

...to GOD be the GLORY!
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 12, 2013 - 07:20am PT
In his chronicles, when he went crusading with King/St. Louis, Jean de Joinville relates the following story. A nobleman met an old, peasant woman carrying a pail of water and a wooden bowl with a burning ember. The nobleman asked the woman where she was going. She replied, "With the water, I will put out the fires of Hell. With the ember, I will burn Heaven down. Anyone who serves God in fear of Hell or hope of Heaven does not understand."


Later that day she met the Buddha on the road and killed him.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 12, 2013 - 07:54am PT
I'm curious. Is enlightenment where you achieve the state of utterly owning the discursive mind? Having total control of it at all times?

Somebody posted a quote a while back about shooting the ego and ridding yourself of it. JL says above that we can't, nor would we want to. Sorry, it gets a little confusing. It seems that during the act of meditation, you rid yourself of the discursive, chattering mind.

So JL and MikeL...again, what is your goal? I've signed up for this meditation class just to take time out of each day to clear my mind. I think too hard sometimes and then dream geology. Not fun.

Werner. Go pick up that million bucks. Donate it to one of the Tea Party organizations. Spew a million bucks worth of hate. It would be better to give to the Red Cross, though.

Sadly, a million bucks doesn't go as far these days....
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 12, 2013 - 08:07am PT
.
Oct 12, 2013 - 07:20am PT
In his chronicles, when he went crusading with King/St. Louis, Jean de Joinville relates the following story. A nobleman met an old, peasant woman carrying a pail of water and a wooden bowl with a burning ember. The nobleman asked the woman where she was going. She replied, "With the water, I will put out the fires of Hell. With the ember, I will burn Heaven down. Anyone who serves God in fear of Hell or hope of Heaven does not understand."


Later that day she met the Buddha on the road and killed him.

Cintune - good stuff.
But the Buddha would say the same thing as the woman.
There are some branches of Buddisim that are mystical. Zen is highly mystical and originated in China. Tibetan Buddisim is also mystical.
But the core of Buddhism is just good psychology.

The Buddha would probably shake this woman's hand and they would have a good laugh.


Still - awesome post..
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2013 - 08:34am PT
Impossible to kill Buddha, never ever ever been done.

Buddha is eternal.

Other wise you would not talking about him today .....
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 12, 2013 - 08:41am PT
Oblique reference:

The ninth-century Buddhist master Lin Chi is supposed to have said, “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.” Like much of Zen teaching, this seems too cute by half, but it makes a valuable point: to turn the Buddha into a religious fetish is to miss the essence of what he taught.

http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=2903Itemid=247
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2013 - 08:50am PT

So JL and MikeL...again, what is your goal?

Their goal is enlightenment, even though they will never admit it
Why?
because you have to stop desiring it to achieve it, if you want it you will never get there, or if you try too hard, or eat the wrong foods, or see a pretty women....

"Never admit the goal, because that would be admitting that you desire the goal (enlightenment)"

From what I've read, the enlightened lose part of their self, and see things differently, like the way MikeL. tells us the way we should see things, that nothing is real etc.

You have to kill off part of yourself, or maybe damage a part of the brain so it doesn't respond the same way to reality. Do we really know how the enlightened mind is different? No, it is possible that long hours of meditation could kill of a part of the brain functioning

But since these people can't live a normal life after enlightenment is complete, you can assume it isn't the goal after all. All they can say that is good thing is that they transcended suffering.
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2013 - 09:02am PT
The self can never ever be killed ever.

No one has ever done it.

It's impossible to do.

There is no two snowflakes alike, ever ever ever.

Simultaneous oneness and difference.

Each snowflake has individuality (personality) and all of them together are (one) Snow just like us (Oneness = humanity) (individuality/personality = Dr F).

I have now one/won the 1 million dollar prize .....

Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2013 - 09:05am PT

I have now one (sic) the 1 million dollar prize .....
WB


I will give you an extra million if you can actually win the Challenge.
You've got nothing that could win a single dollar


Challenge Info

The Foundation is committed to providing reliable information about paranormal claims. It both supports and conducts original research into such claims.

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests.

Click here to see the application.

Click here to see the current $1 million statement which shows the current amount in our prize account.

Frequently Asked Questions

The Log of Applicants


http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2013 - 09:06am PT
I already one/won and have donated to the peaceful Putinator ......

:-)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 12, 2013 - 11:19am PT
I'm not trying to pass judgement on any other person's experience, in any way shape or form. There is no way to quantify any of this so all evaluations from teh otuside are so much hot air, including mine.

All I am saing is that there is one way to approach spirituality, and that is to use the very same track that we follow with any other discipline. I suppose the basic model is academics. If you want to master something that is difficult, has a big historical body of work (like lit or math or history), had acknowledged experts that had to undergo massive study and testing and years of understudy to get a job in the field), then you have to make a committment and put in the time and the study. Who can possibly expect to get jiggy with any difficult subject by way of lark personal experiences or by reading a little bit at their leisure.

I think it is this idea of training, or of folowing a discipline, or working with teachers, or in a structure, that throws people - and strangly, many people who have perfectly followed the standard road to understanding in some other scholastic pursuit.

While we can understand this "practice" model with things like science and poetry and music, we struggle with the idea that in the experiencial realm, we might need to apply the same seriousness and comittment to reap the fruit. Most of us, myself included, want something for nothing.

JL

Messages 17661 - 17680 of total 22787 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews