jstan
climber
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Somehow there is something attractive about the "perective" option. Wonder what it is.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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WBraun
When I guess I guess about "what-is-according-to-WBraun's-hermetical-system". Only WBraun and possibly his God knows (only WBraun can tell). And I know nothing about God, though there's times when I pray to this nothing...
WBraun is intelligent when it comes to his own system... which can also be seen as a trap... a hermetical trap...
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WBraun
climber
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Marlow is trying to guess and project what wbraun is thinking.
Very scientific.
Norton is upset because by "Chance" he taxed his brain with too much knowledge.
Just see ....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The test with 100 people can be blind and there can be two simultaneous tests to disguise the relevance of the time of day. Still easy.
My sense of this is that in some way you are trying to limit or eliminate the subject from this process, believing that the data will then be truly "objective," having been wrought, and later will exist, as a stand alone thing.
Is this correct, John?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Marlow is understanding more and more about the workings of WBrauns mind. Marlow appreciates the act of trying to understand...
WBraun loves repetition. Just see...
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FortMentäl
Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Jstan...
That's because "collecternal" sounds like a bank loan from hell.
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jstan
climber
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In the collecternal sense, I think this thread is finally beginning to get somewhere.
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WBraun
climber
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By pure "Chance" this thread might be getting somewhere?
Where ARE we going ..... ???
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Still easy.
Please say what you think you've done . . . you . . . here . . . in this thread . . . in the last few posts.
What do you think is easy would be deeply questioned in your "study" by practitioners. I submit it's easy to you, but only for you.
What do you think you have proven?
So many here think they understand science and the scientific method, but I submit they don't.
More importantly, what they don't know is their own minds. If your mind is defective, then your science will be defective.
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FortMentäl
Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Plenty of defective minds produce excellent science, art, sport, and whatever else. You're skating on "no-ice" there.
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WBraun
climber
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defective minds produce excellent science
When the mind is defective the soul always remains perfect.
Thus proves the mind and brain is not the real doer.
Where did "Chance" go ?????
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WBraun
climber
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From go-B's link.
"Chance is a fine way of expressing certain mathematical probabilities, but in itself it cannot cause anything to happen."
Oh oh ..... looks like angry Norton (who hates himself), HFSC and the rest of the soup guys are are completely wrong .......
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Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
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My son Werner does not strike me as bitter.
A smart ass, sure. But bitter?
I dunno about that....
DMT
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Back to the description of meditative experience as described by those who engage in it, I have to describe my first base jump (off of El Cap).
I had seen Tom Cosgriff jump right past Duane Raleigh and I in 1983. He opened right out in front of us on Mescalito, and we could holler to each other. He had included way too many people on his plans, and we watched the lights of the rangers in the trees hunting him down. Yep, they caught him.
We could hear him falling before we saw him in the dusky light, then he came into view with his hands back tracking. He took a ten second delay and opened level with El Cap tower (which is far to the right of the fall line).
It was the raddest thing I had ever seen. The noise that a falling body makes is shockingly loud.
So I ran into some skydivers back home, and they wanted to go do El Cap and helped me through all of my student skydives. I bought a POS rig for 250 bucks and the three of us went to the valley in March. I had a whopping 24 jumps, including my static line and student short freefalls. My buddies cracked up watching me track on my first ten second skydive. All I wanted to do was jump El Cap and then that was it.
We ran into Walt Shipley, who had just come down from the high country after knocking Bill Russell's teeth out, and he guided us up Eagle Gully because there was still a ton of snow on top. We made it up there and spent a miserable night in the cold and snow.
After sunup we got ready. I felt like I was going to puke I was so scared.
My two buddies went first and Walt took pictures of all of us.
We jumped about 20 seconds apart, so I was all geared up standing on the diving board. It felt like I was committing suicide (Cosgriff had described the feeling to me already).
Like a lemming resigned to its fate, I jumped. The seconds building up to that were probably the most unpleasant moments of my entire life, and I used to free solo stuff at my absolute limit and generally didn't consider myself a frightful person. This was something light years ahead of anything I had experienced fear wise. I had also seen skydiving students totally lock up from fear and hit the ground with little recollection of their jumps.
The MICROSECOND that my foot pushed off of the edge, El Cap filled my vision and a strange sensation flooded my mind. All fear vanished and my senses were all clicking at top volume. I had never been more aware in my life. I can remember it all vividly 28 years later.
I'm curious if that is what you guys are after in meditation: all senses firing at full volume, but not overwhelming. If I could make a drug that gave the same sensation, I would be a very wealthy man. It was like my awareness had been dialed up to 11, and it washed over me like a wave in a microsecond.
I chased that feeling for years after that, and while I got close, I could never quite get that wired again. When you have jumped the same 1500 foot antenna 25 times, it almost gets routine.
I wish that everyone could have that experience. Hyper-aware. No conscious thought, just action.
I spent most of '86 living in the valley and jumping on my own. Occasionally people from so-cal would show up and find me and I would jump with them. I was uber-paranoid about the rangers and would never tell anyone what I was up to. I used to keep my rig under a boulder up on the trail to Sentinel (as well as my blotto). I never kept any skydiving or BASE related stuff in my van. It was all up off of the trail under that boulder covered with leaves.
I ended up doing 75 jumps that year, about 45 in the valley. I was not only never caught, I was never even chased. I hid out in the SAR site and entertained the biggest base jumpers on Earth there. Werner doesn't even remember me, I kept such a low profile.
One time I went up to meet Shipley and Russ Walling on top after the second ascent of Born Under A Bad Sign. I carried a pack full of green heineken bottles and we drank them around a camp fire along the creek that makes horsetail falls.
I overslept the next morning, and no way would I jump during the day, so I waited an extra day, hoping they didn't call me in as missing. I had a hit of blotto with me, and my intention was to pop it and then jump, but I just couldn't do it.
So I jumped and ate it the second I hit the ground.
I had El Cap wired, ranger-wise, and finally made it back to the cafeteria where everone was drinking coffee and scarfing food. Only Russ and Walt knew what was up, and that I was tripping, but it was quite the experience.
I've spent my whole life chasing experiences. I could list all of the crazy sh#t I've done, but nobody would believe it all.
Anyway, I can't imagine ever achieving that degree of clarity that I got off of that first jump off of El Cap again. If that is what you guys are feeling with meditation, then by all means, point me in the right direction. I've just never been able to stay happy unless I am doing some odd thing or another.
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FortMentäl
Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Maybe this video would help...
From Eagleman's site:
To understand the neural mechanisms of time perception, we combine psychophysical, behavioral, and computational approaches to address the relationship between the timing of perception and the timing of neural signals. We are currently engaged in experiments that explore temporal encoding, time warping, manipulations of the perception of causality, time perception in schizophrenia, and time perception in high-adrenaline situations. We use this data to explore how neural signals processed by different brain regions come together for a temporally unified picture of the world.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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When you do your first BASE jump, time seems to completely stop. It is an incredible feeling.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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re: mortality
Trees in the Autumn, Ansel Adams...
"We're all going to die. And to all of us it seems a fiction and not quite fair. Ansel Adams with great grace, great dignity, shows us that it is written into the script. The leaves will fall and we will die. It is part of the cycle of nature of which we are an ineluctable part. And therefore we must bow down to its demands rather than protest angrily or be frightened or bitter. It is part of the script of life. This is what emanates, for me at least, beautifully, from the Ansel Adams."
Alain de Botton, Art as Therapy
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Ernst Cassirer: Language and Myth 1946.
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go-B
climber
Hebrews 1:3
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It's not by chance God sent Jesus to us...
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
 Missing photo ID#333844
Now is the time to make your reservations for the Heavenly crossing, Jesus is the true Arc to save all that will come to Him for the other shore, there's a storm a comin' and He won't take you kicking and screaming to Heaven!
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