Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
Millennials are also quick to abandon things of which they see little value. "That's stupid" equates to "and we're not doing it." They're brand of consensus is not 'old fashioned.' Once unfettered they will quickly shed the obligations foisted upon them by Boomers. Economically, in particular. When they tighten the belt they will have no generational sympathy for the boomers that remain...

DMT

And how will these little Quislings find work? Obama will hire them? Their "Boomer" parents advice to find a solid trade or workable degree will be ignored? They should just ignore the tired old generation and do what they please with no regard for consequence?

You are stupid and are teaching kids the wrong lessons. You are what is killing our younger generation. You are teaching no regard for personal responsibility, no regard for choosing an occupation that is actually viable in our economy.

You are a problem, sir.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
we can't quite come to any specific definition about any concept--be it something as simple as a chair or something as abstract as trust (MikeL)

To live one's life deconstructing all that one sees and hears and feels, to carve up order and seek chaos, to quest after some sort of emptiness, some kind of vacuum rather than attempt to construct based upon the reality we think we know is depressingly nihilistic, pointless, and sad.

Go-B and Ed have the right idea.
MH2

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Precision in empirical science almost always relies upon measurements, and it should be noted that measurements are socially-constructed and arbitrary.


Does this have anything to do with when I check my tire pressure?


In my experience, rigor refers to not having logical flaws or gaps in an argument, and nothing to do with measurement directly.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Italic TextMillennials are a generation of social networking consensus. Baby Boomers are a generation of adversarial, confrontational , opinionated idealism.

Millennials seek common ground. Baby Boomers argue the superiority of their positions and values.Italic Text

Based on the response to the Tree Incident if you read the responders on JK's blog it is millennials trying to smooth things over and calling the BBoomers haters and if go on supertaco you see the BBoomers pointing at the Millenials saying LOL.

Thanks for the entertainment Bluey! LOL
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
Does this have anything to do with when I check my tire pressure?


In my experience, rigor refers to not having logical flaws or gaps in an argument, and nothing to do with measurement directly.


That's what I thought too, but whatever...

Based on the response to the Tree Incident if you read the responders on JK's blog it is millennials trying to smooth things over and calling the BBoomers haters and if go on supertaco you see the BBoomers pointing at the Millenials saying LOL.

Thanks for the entertainment Bluey! LOL

Let me explain the fallacy of your thinking. You explain millenials (young punks) to be more accepting and Boomers to be more critical.

Who do you really think is the more logical and reasoned?

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. (Barry Goldwater).

The point?

Sometimes compromise is not right, sometimes standing for the law is.
WBraun

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
In my experience, rigor refers to not having logical flaws or gaps in an argument,

The conditioned mundane soul can never do that.

The conditioned soul must make mistakes.

There's no escape if remaining in the conditioned state .....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:02am PT
The conditioned mundane soul can never do that.

The conditioned soul must make mistakes.

There's no escape if remaining in the conditioned state .....


But it usually follows a pure path, if it is following a pure guide. This is the problem today. Nobody follows a spirit path, everybody just does whatever the he!! they want. And I don't mean spirit path as some new-age bullshit either. I'm talking God! But nobody cares anymore, nobody gives a f*#k!

Kinda been my point here for a while.
WBraun

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:10am PT
The stupid modern people say there is no God.

All while staring into/at his inferior energy 24/7.

Thus they remain perpetually bewildered 24/7 .......
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:15am PT
I always dug your spirit, Werner. Never faltering, never changing, and never too smug.

God bless ya, dude. One of these days we'll meet, hopefully not during a rescue!
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:20am PT
As for definitions, they are apparently impossible to create and apply completely, consistently, and without error. At best they are heuristics.

With this and other comments, you've taken the idea of language to an absurd conclusion. I suppose it's one way to argue a point, or put on a show.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:22am PT
To live one's life deconstructing all that one sees and hears and feels, to carve up order and seek chaos, to quest after some sort of emptiness, some kind of vacuum rather than attempt to construct based upon the reality we think we know is depressingly nihilistic, pointless, and sad.


Your absolutely correct Jgill; That would be crazy; and it is your construct.

The Heart Sutra says " form does not differ from emptiness and emptiness does not differ from form; that which is emptiness is form and that which is form is emptiness"

emptiness is before thinking mind

; so, all the constructs of vacuum, nihilistic ,pointless and sad don't exist in before thinking mind ; the only thing that exists is direct experience "moment to moment mind" but as Jack Kornfield said you still have to do the laundry.

So there are two sides to the coin emptiness and form; if you attach to either one you will suffer . so most important what are you doing in this very moment, moment, moment .......... I am signing off.



WBraun

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:24am PT
So there are two sides to the coin emptiness and form; if you attach to either one you will suffer


Only if they are material will one suffer .......
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:36am PT
In the world you imply (that is, of clear and concise definitions where concepts of any sort are agreed upon), one would expect definitions would finally be determined due to the convergence of observations, measurements, and experiments. Remarkably, the opposite appears in almost every research domain, and it appears to contradict so-called conventional "consensus reality."

I'm pretty sure that precise definitions and intellectual rigor successfully put a probe on the surface of Mars and built the tools used to find the Higgs-Boson. You can be dead certain that despite cultural, linguistic, and racial differences, everyone knew precisely what everyone else was talking about. Sorry to have to contradict your "reality" but a "definition" is not simply a pile of observations, measurements, and experiments; that's just called "data" where I come from.
WBraun

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:45am PT
intellectual rigor successfully put a probe on the surface of Mars and built the tools used to find the Higgs-Boson

People been going to Mars since forever.

So what big credit goes to this wasted cave man epic so called probe.

Just plain stupid waste.

You steal everyone's hard earn money and then beat your chest.

Anyone can easily reach any planet with proper training.

No need for all this stupid junk you people make.

Higgs-Boson didn't do sh!t.

Keep beating your chest like the monkey you still are ....

You're still stupid as hell.

You can't even balance a budget, nor end a war, nor prevent all this other stupid garbage you've invented to kill us .....

jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:48am PT
People been going to Mars since forever (Duck)

This will take a while to sink in . . .
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Well, Ok! :-)

Hey, I didn't make that stuff up. You can find the conversations about the inability to define any concept in the literature if you want. Murphy's book is a benchmark report on the subject of concept definition. Look it up. Or not.

Look around you. Do you see any big technological or social problems out there that we can't seem to agree upon or fix, or that continue to generate unintended consequences?

If science were to somehow succeed (and I mean as far as solving human problems once and for all), then things would be somehow getting better. We don't need more space stations or to determine Higgs-Boson. We seem to need implementing The Affordable Health Care Act, getting large forest fires under control, solving poverty, fixing upper and lower education systems, diminishing unemployment, pulling the economy out of the dumper, decreasing ADHD, decreasing terrorist incidents, stop waring on each other, and so on.

How come the world doesn't get better for mankind over time?

How come we can't come to a convergence about what anything is?

Yeah, all we need are better definitions. If we just had those, they would solve our most pressing problems.

There are two really good things about a scientific approach, which is all science really is (an approach). One, it encourages people to make careful systematic observations. Two, it actually fosters differences in beliefs and theories.

Unfortunately, people are so enamored and committed to their ideas, they can't believe their senses. Their theories and beliefs over-ride them. As for the second idea, the divergence of interpretations about anything in reality should encourage folks to take their own beliefs lightly and listen to and collaborate with others more empathetically. It should make folks more open. It doesn't and they aren't, least not this generation.

Science seems to be good on vision and poor on implementation when it comes to the bigger human pictures. (This might be the same problem the U.S. President has.)
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
How come we can't come to a convergence about what anything is? (MikeL)

When my wife says, "let's get a new chair for the living room", I know what she means. We might then discuss style and price, but we both know what a chair is. Do you live on a different planet?

It's true that the concept of an electron changes over time and we lack certainty over just what it is, but that doesn't keep scientists from creating remarkable devices implementing the mathematical characteristics of the particle/wave. Progress is not brought to a standstill because our mental image of an object is vague. As Ed has said, we apply the math while it works, then change it when it doesn't. A "working definition" is all that's required.

Maybe I'm making your argument for you. But I'm not sure what your argument is.

Now, if your comment is meant to describe the social sciences it may be appropriate. I don't know enough there to comment.
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
Aaaah... I see the problem. In your Quasi-Zen world-view, you see unresolved social problems as failures of scientists to "define", whereas reasonable people might see them for what they are: failures of so-called leaders to manage.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
Jgill:

In the most general way, we all agree. It's raining, the sun is out, the stop light is red, etc. Yup, got that. But the closer we look at anything, which is what science is up to in order to explain how one or another thing happens, that's when the full agreement begins to disappear. Name your domain, and in the thickets and weeds, there is tremendous disagreement.

BTW, the wife and I are arguing about what an art piece I'm making should look like in our living room. (I haven't even started work on it yet!) Actually, we've had the same "conversations" about chairs and sofas, too. When we both said, "hey, let's get another chair for the den," we both said, "sure, let's do that!" That is . . . until we got down to it, and then agreement about "the chair" we had in mind needed to be negotiated.

The more general, the more agreement. The more specific, the less agreement.


FM:

I didn't bring the need for definitions up. You did.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
MikeL

Is this post a post on the "Politics, God and Religion vs. Science" thread of the Supertopo.com forum?
Yes? No? Maybe?

A quite spesific question isn't it?
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