Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 21, 2013 - 10:30am PT
Great post MikeL.. i like this guy McKenna.

Ward, you will surly perish if you ever meditate. So don't. Think about not doing it.

I've already attempted many informal sessions. I still dabble in it from time to time. Everyone has had a go-around with TM, for instance.
I have found meditatin' to be quite diffi"cult" (get it) . The pitifully little that I've done mind you---especially as compared to ya'll, of course.

Nothing harder than effectively stilling an active mind, and body. I once use to ,and still do engage, in several of the pop techniques; such as every time I would generate a discrete thought I would wrap it in an air bubble and send it to the surface---like a scuba diver with an aqualung.(exhausting, that one)
Nightly I attempt to profoundly relax. I breathe from my diaphragm slowly counting to 10.
I have at times concentrated on chakra points from bottom to top. I particularly enjoy, if that's the word, concentrating on the third eye.

Sometimes I do some Monroe Institute stuff, such as binaural beats and hemisync stuff. Once I even dabbled in programming my synthesizer to produce some of my own custom wild cat frequencies.
I didn't know what I was doing , ended up crossing incompatible frequencies and made myself extremely nauseous as a result.

One thing I discovered while recently attempting to get a handle on thought suppression was that it is, not surprisingly, much harder when I am stressed about something. This is no doubt an aspect of the natural mind, and nervous system, defaulting to survival mode. Any stress is interpreted as a possible threat event and the lower brain mobilizes a heightened calibration to the external world --lest a tiger jumps out and grabs you by the throat.
Largo interprets this as "jealousy" on the part of the so-called discursive mind. Nay, It is nothing more nor less than an auto-pilot survival thermostat mechanism that should not be messed with until some serious decompression adjustment time has elapsed.

If you have any questions about meditating in general don't be afraid to ask me.
WBraun

climber
Sep 21, 2013 - 10:34am PT
But thousands of years of spiritual exploration have yet to reveal the mystery of our being to any general satisfaction.

Suddenly this mental speculator who claims no one knows becomes the all knower of all thousands of years of spiritual exploration.

Just another guy who is controlled by his own run away mind projecting onto the world outside of himself who's full of himself .....
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 21, 2013 - 11:50am PT
What is religion but a way to escape that which is simply overwhelming, to understand what ultimately is, perhaps, beyond the possibility of any understanding.


I can't speak for religion, but for spiritual paths, the way is directly into the your worst wound. As they say, "God" is the very size of the hole in your heart. Once you experience directly that you are NOT your wound, your mind, your history, and your existential "truth," that all are impermanent, you are close to the one truth. And that's the whole game - find the truth.

JL
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 21, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
. . . and your existential "truth," that all are impermanent, you are close to the one truth. And that's the whole game - find the truth (JL)

Then if one is not careful, one almost immediately falls back into the same discursive, judgmental mind, deciding that one is a spiritual genius, has found the ultimate truth and worst of all, needs to begin converting others to it etc. (Jan)

Admirable observation.

Thank you, Jan, for an excellent commentary on the question I asked. Odd that not one Bible Guy has chimed in on this. Perhaps the Born Again view spiritual meditations as witchcraft? If so, they should speak up.

On an unrelated topic, It would seem that President Assad has protected Christians in Syria in his tenure, and that now that jihadists have contaminated the rebel forces Christians are in peril. Not that any amount of protective good will could compensate for the use of poison gas.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 21, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
The prosperity TV evangelists shysters who's mantra is, "Never give a sucker an even break", are going to face a hotter hell!
But people who think God is just your own personal candy dispenser, are mistaken...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#322345

Matthew 6:19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11

...give thanks and take The Bread of Life and dip it into the au jus of The Spirit and live life eternal and in abundance!
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 21, 2013 - 04:37pm PT


?
MH2

climber
Sep 21, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
...give thanks and take The Bread of Life and dip it into the au jus of The Spirit and live life eternal and in abundance!

go-B is not a glass-is-half-full guy. He is saying that in his own way. I don't know what the rest of the post was about, though.

Joy be yours, go-B.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 21, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
" find the truth."
I couldn't agree more. It's what almost everyone is looking for; I know I am..

Is speculate a Yiddish word? A device used to exam the female pelvis? And to mentally speculate, is there another kind of speculation; can you speculate with your feet or kidneys? How do you speculate if you don't do it through some mental process? And if you're full of yourself are you any different than anyone else, I mean what are you full of if not yourself. Is there really anyone who is full of somebody else? Frankly, I think the ability to mentally speculate is a gift and I plan to take full advantage of it until I'm completely filled up with myself and if somebody doesn't like it, tough sh*t.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 21, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
Well, Werner is full of Prabhupada, for one.
The duck says quack, and the sacred cow says Ooooooooom.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 21, 2013 - 07:09pm PT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWIrK-Fv6M8

Hope you all had a chance to catch the New Rules with Bill Maher, yesterday concerning twitter, blog and forum trolls...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaGEYtel7QQ

Oh the times!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 21, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
WOW, Absolutely magnificent!!!!

What was so special about Sep. 20? If someone just now chimed in. These are some of the best posts of the entire thread!! Congratulations! Everyone, for this thread getting better and better and better..

Only wish I was there to speak to every individual post. Instead of still typing from my phone.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 21, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
Seems to regress infinitely begging the question who/what is the observer (witness) and who/what is the observed. If the mind is observing itself then how can it be anything but two minds and why isn't the observer mind just as susceptible to "monkey" stuff? It would seem that all thought is discursive of a kind even when it is non-thought. Who realizes enlightenment if there is no one there? If the witnessing one is no thing then witnessing itself is in the strictest sense "unrealized."

Respectfully, Seems like this is where it started. With one of the most contrived questions to date...

....Except for that last word?

With meditation on this question, and being honest; can't we adjourn to knowing that there is another voice speaking to the mind whith in the self?
MH2

climber
Sep 21, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
can't we adjourn to knowing that there is another voice speaking to the mind?


It's been known to happen.

Thanks to MikeL for bringing up Jed McKenna. That McKenna seems to exist in the material plane only in the form of words he has written. However, there is also Terence McKenna.

Terence McKenna, like some on this thread who advocate meditation, considers the ego to be a hindrance to enlightenment, realization, awareness, awakening, etc. Speculating about the early days of human development he wrote:

Wherever and whenever the ego function began to form, it was akin to a cancerous tumor or a blockage in the energy of the psyche. The use of psychedelic plants in a context of shamanic initiation dissolved - as it dissolves today - the knotted structure of the ego into undifferentiated feeling, what Eastern philosophy calls the Tao.


Under the influence of an hallucinogen McKenna heard a "divine informative voice."


Now, there is one sure way to rid yourself of ego, which McKenna also experienced:

I always thought death would come on the freeway in a few horrifying moments, so you'd have no time to sort it out. Having months and months to look at it and think about it and talk to people and hear what they have to say, it's a kind of blessing. It's certainly an opportunity to grow up and get a grip and sort it all out. Just being told by an unsmiling guy in a white coat that you're going to be dead in four months definitely turns on the lights. ... It makes life rich and poignant. When it first happened, and I got these diagnoses, I could see the light of eternity, a la William Blake, shining through every leaf. I mean, a bug walking across the ground moved me to tears.


I know what he's talking about, as do many others.



There was a time when meadow, grove, and stream,
The earth, and every common sight,
To me did seem
Apparell'd in celestial light,
The glory and the freshness of a dream.
.
.
.
.

Ode
Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood
William Wordsworth. 1770–1850
.
.
.
.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live,
Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears,
To me the meanest flower that blows can give
Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears.




BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 21, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
But as for one trying to respond to the most respectful JoGill.

But I am still curious about JL's awakening and the Christian born again . . . are they similar? Speak up Bible People! What do you think? I realize very few if any have had both experiences, but if you have had one and have thought about the other your words could be informative.

I do feel like I've experienced the dementia from both acts. Prolly not to the summit of The Masters. But enough to get away from the "I am" syndrome. (maybe from living life through my 7yro daughter, or from living life with the Holy Spirit). Since being "born again" I RARELY experience the "I" in the day. Instead, I experience always the "U" in the day. I no longer ask what "I" will say, but rather what "U" would have me to say...
Being Transcendent to "being born again" to me is forgiving "us" and being Obliged to seeking the Truth. Without the reprieve from God, I always Adjourned things as selfish.
It is one thing Truely, to be "outside" of the experience, looking in. But why?

This is why I went seekin for more than discursive and nondiscursive.

I have more to say about being Born Again, if you'll listen?

WBraun

climber
Sep 21, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Now, there is one sure way to rid yourself of ego,

Impossible to do.

It's never ever been done period.

Ego is the individuality of the living entity.

Merging into the oneness is spiritual suicide and is sought after by those in poor fund of knowledge.

The mayavadi fools always desire and fall for this.

False ego is the problem. Falsely identifying oneself as the material body.

One should study the science of the soul .......
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 21, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
I have more to say about being Born Again, if you'll listen?


Of course. Please continue.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 21, 2013 - 09:10pm PT

Impossible to do.

SO TRUE!

But when listing; there is a voice Ask'in us, what's more important? Me or them.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 21, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
For me, saying being Born Again.
Is the ability to allow the absolute despondence of everything I've ever known, to the ability to allow the words of the bible to transcend into the intermost depths of my beings understanding
of nature (the world), and my relationship with mankind. And to let go of my predescribed measure of the world. And allow a unseen entity to interject an authority towards mans innafirmaties. And then to be consoled to these ideas. And be confirmed through action.

In a nutshell.


Edit: what's more real than bowing down to a Master?
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 21, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
Well put, BB. Thank you.

;>)
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 22, 2013 - 11:35am PT
Bowing to a master? Nietzsche did say that Christianity was a kind of slave religion (I’m paraphrasing). Hitchens describes Christianity as a kind of North Korean style arrangement/ government.

Perhaps I am too full of myself but bowing to a master’s voice that I somehow hear in my mind has all the elements of a kind of pathology. How does one “know” the authenticity of their personal voices? It would seem God has spoken to so many with so many different voices and with such self sureness of the listener that we hardly know who to listen to. Perhaps it's safer to shut our mind's ears and just enjoy being.
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