Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 18, 2013 - 11:29am PT
What's more, what is silly is to suggest there is as much content or structure to meditation as there is to art or music.

Regarding meditation, perhaps the better question is Why's it so important to you? You didn't need it as a child (I presume), so why do you need it as an adult? Is your mind troubled as an adult? Is it out of control? Does it somehow need taming? in a way that it didn't as child or teen? There has been a lot of talk about "discursive" thinking in the negative. Are some of you having trouble focusing? Really, why all this posting about meditation over and over and over and over? Seems to me if you're anxious (e.g., as an aging adult), suffering anxiety, whatever, you would engage in some relaxation, you would go get some r and r in some way, and then get back to living. Life is short.

When I'm stressed (from too much work or whatever), I often go... climbing. That focuses the mind, refreshes the brain, rightens things. Even moreso than mindfulness meditation, I find. Enough already. All this talk on meditation. Why? Life is short. Go get busy! ;)

There is an art to focusing on a task. There is an art to taking one's mind off of something. Note that these "arts" or skills - both helpful to everyday living - need not reference or require "meditation."

Attention-deficit issues? Anxiety or relaxation problems? Adult-onset existential depression? Try...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Willpower-Instinct-Self-Control-Matters/dp/1583334386/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_z

http://www.amazon.com/Willpower-Rediscovering-Greatest-Human-Strength/dp/0143122231/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379530402&sr=1-1&keywords=roy+baumeister

"Life isn't cured, it's managed."
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 18, 2013 - 11:40am PT
Regarding meditation, perhaps the better question is Why's it so important to you?

I asked JL this same question and he said he felt it was helpful in dealing with the pain
of his injury
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 18, 2013 - 11:45am PT
Good to see things up and running again!

Have a great time, MikeL & Wife.


;>)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 18, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
Yes, Norton,

What good is meditation? what problem, or problems, does it solve?

Has anyone answered this question here in any meaningful way? esp any that justifies the 1000-plus posts that reference it.

Yeah, I would meditate if it could solve a problem I was having. I wonder what problem that would be?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 18, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
What good is meditation? what problem, or problems, does it solve?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?keyword=Meditation

I have provided these links before ,
Meditation is quite useful and of great benefit at leading to healthier outcomes for individuals who practice it daily.

A form of super-consciousness that represents a higher evolved state of human awareness?

If the proponents can prove this for mankind collectively then they've really got something.

Here's a fanciful idea:

A world dictator comes into absolute power, Largo for instance. He thereafter releases a meditative papal bull ordering mandatory Zen practice for every human on planet earth.
After a few thousand years of meditating , humans manage to epigenetically transform their consciousness to that of a typical Zen master.
Problem solved.
No more naked apes with computers and atom bombs.

(I like the no more atom bomb part.)



MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Great post, Riley. Great posts, everyone. So many things that one can respond to or add on to.

MH2: Sure, people can see an equation on the blackboard, but can they embody it? You can read King Lear, but do you live it? Anyone can cognitively understand the idea of impermanence. As an idea, it's simple, really. But what would your life look like if you experienced impermanence in every thing you are and did? Nothing could be concrete or serious. PSP's post points at the same. (What are you or Dr. F. not hearing?)

. . . discursive , "evaluating" mind . . . is not an incorrect, inadequate , and misleading ,or inherently flawed way of thinking.

Certainly.

Nothing is wrong because nothing can be. Reality is perfect. It has to be. You're perfect, we're all perfect. We are all exactly right where we should be, on our own paths. You are what you cannot help yourself to be and do. Delusion (however or wherever you see it) is part of the perfection. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with me. There's nothing wrong with any of us. There's nothing wrong in the world (Syria, eg.) or the universe. JUST THIS right here right now is where our development has brought us to. Viola! The brain, opposable thumbs, monotheism, mathematics, Buddhism, abstract minimalism, etc. are all artifacts and steps along the way.

So what's the deal with all this conversation about meditation and the discursive mind? No one is trying to say a mind isn't divine, important, or useful. The mind is infinitely energetic, creative, and intelligent (at its depths). Left to its own devices, like a mischievous child, the mind will start making things up and creating veils that obscure What This Is. Hence, magic, religions, myths, science, rationalism, etc. all provide different views of What This Is.

Meditative traditions (Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Bon, Shaivism, Yoga, etc.) are devoted to discovering What This Is through a number of different paths. You can renounce the origins of your own suffering; you can purify your life of its pain and suffering through asceticism; you can transform and channel your experiences into divine energies for personal release; or you can allow every thing to self-liberate by becoming familiar with your own awareness.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
well fine......

but who's to say that all those supposedly higher evolved meditative consciousness's proclaimed benefits are not equally being achieved by strong Discursive intellects?

me, thats who

any others?

can I get some Amens?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
Yes, Norton, amen.

Meditation isn't my problem solver, thinking is.

Or education is. Or awareness-raising is. Or negotiation is. Or focus is. Or letting go is. Or hard work is. Or training (practice, practice, practice) is. Or discipline is. Or attitude is.



Okay, I'm done. Time to go "refresh" my brain circuitry now. ;)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Yeah, I would meditate if it could solve a problem I was having. I wonder what problem that would be?

When I'm stressed (from too much work or whatever), I often go... climbing. That focuses the mind, refreshes the brain, rightens things. Even moreso than mindfulness meditation, I find..


That's your path of release, HFCS. If it's hard climbing, that's a form of asceticism. If it is easier climbing, it might be channeling your experiences into divine energies for release (a form of aestheticism).

You don't have to sit still and quietly to meditate. Personally I sit in contemplation (watching awareness) every morning for 40 minutes at 5 am, but only to watch and gauge my mind's level of obsession, and I've come to like the physical feeling of sitting like a pretzel. When the pain in my legs rise to a certain level, then things tend to get really clear.

The most significant contemplative experiences for me these days occur throughout the day, very often just observing myself with others. Last night I listened while my wife talked about how her perceptions are changing in her experience, and I fell into noticing the lila again for a while.

The things that she's saying are flooring me. I thought I was supposed to be the spiritual one. Largo's right: the idea of setting the reset button appears to be powerful.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
This thread refreshes my sense of humor. I approach Zen style meditation similar to climbing; it is a wonderful adventure and it is different everytime I sit down. If you have alot of expectations it will be an awkward experience.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Credit: Ward Trotter
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 18, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
A world dictator comes into absolute power, Largo for instance.


Are you drunk, Ward? Man, you really don't want me at the helm, my brother.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 18, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
you really don't want me at the helm, my brother.

Hahahaha.


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 18, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Meditation isn't my problem solver, thinking is.

Or education is. Or awareness-raising is. Or negotiation is. Or focus is. Or letting go is. Or hard work is. Or training (practice, practice, practice) is. Or discipline is. Or attitude is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly a "believer" in the art of training the mind. In regard to ALL the items mentioned above.

Note that the (currently nameless) "art of training the mind" covers a great deal more than "meditation" as normally conceived or defined.

Now I could understand a thread with 1000 plus posts concerning the art of training the mind. And probably find it interesting, too. Esp if it didn't go all woo-woo on us.
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
Esp if it didn't go all woo-woo on us.


Yeah just keep sticking to your sterile mundane so called scientific dogma that 100 blind guys in the room all agree on.

That they are blind.

The 100 guys in your room thru observation and theory all agree that they are blind and peer review that they can't see.

One guy enters the room who's not blind and all the lab coats start screaming "No One Knows" and freak out and kill him.

Now you're all safe again in your little world.

Unfortunately ...

They never tested "that there is a third eye"

Stupid mundane material scientists who kill everything that doesn't fit in their tiny limited brain ......
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 18, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 18, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Stupid mundane material scientists who kill everything that doesn't fit in their tiny limited brain ......

Good heavens, WB, I think you need an attitude adjustment!

Mad Scientist by Roberto Campus
Mad Scientist by Roberto Campus
Credit: jogill
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
Largo
sorry if I went over the line, of course I meant no ill will.
Maybe you can post a synopsis of what you are saying
that us unenlightened can understand.
And why your point of view makes the question, if there is God or not invalid.

Because I still feel that is the most fundamental question that remains.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Sep 18, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Attention-deficit issues? Anxiety or relaxation problems? Adult-onset existential depression
Just like high fructose corn syrup, above are the elements of Amerikan nonsense brainwash and toxic crap (for body and mind)--in this case "quack terminology" (usually followed by advice to "see a psychologist" or "take medications"). Oh man, the things you hear in this country...they can't even be translated. Hold on with your stupid meditation crap, western "science" is talking!
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Sep 18, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
Aughh, she's at it again. :(

How naive if not vulgar to the eyes of any design engineer, esp any who's passionate about his field or work.

Wow, full of misogynist s@###.

It's not likely there're actual NON-MEDIOCRE "scientits and engineers" in this discussion. Let's brag about us engineers how special we are!! and superior...
Lol "design engineer"...is this a major now?
I've seen some "product design" and "industrial design" "engineers" ;)))
Got to love the claims that engineering is art, haha.

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