Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:06am PT
Americans believe our country is on the verge of becoming a failed state. States fail when the people lose sight of the thing that binds them all together. In our case it is our constitution and the proximate causes for the war for independence as stated in the declaration of independence.

In a failed state one must always be prepared for mortal combat. You can trust no one. In Rwanda you must always carry a machette.

It's WHITE people who are in danger of becoming a "Failed State". That's why they're engaged in mortal combat for the right to carry guns into schools and restaurants, pray at legislative sessions, and teach their kids creation "science".

You CAN'T trust anyone... school boards are loaded with wackos who also happen to be your neighbors. That old, white guy who just pulled out of his driveway? He packs heat and keeps loaded handguns on his TV, nightstand, and fridge.

If you've ever canvassed for votes during an election, you'll find neighbors who are shocked to discover their neighbors are right wing nut-jobs, and won't put candidate signs in their yards for fear of angering them.

When Hispanics re-discover Ricky Riccardo to be their conservative ideal, and Blacks realize that it's cool to be smart, they'll join the Asians and bury Stupid White Guy in an unmarked grave.


Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 10:23am PT
If that were true, kids would know 3 different languages, how to write code, as well as basic family planning by middle school. As it is, what kids learn is based on the dictates of the lowest common denominator:

Three things here:

A) You took my comment out of the context it was intended . I was stressing the general aims of the current educational establishment and society in general as opposed to the idealistic aims of Sir Ken Robinson
B) you have failed to appreciate that you are making a separate point , namely, the poor state of education in being able to carry out its mandate . In and of itself this does not disprove my point that education is designed and geared towards economic outcomes.
C) The examples you noted ,with perhaps the exception of languages, have nothing directly to do with a general education for the aim of producing economically fit citizens.
Family planning?
Writing code?

Get outta here.

Your comments in your subsequent post are racially and politically charged nonsense and somewhat creepily debased ,and in any case are thoroughly worthless as replies to Jstan's entreaty.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 13, 2013 - 10:35am PT
If our present education system is geared toward economics then we truly are on the road to disaster and jstan is an optimist. One of the major problems it seems is that no one in the U.S. has a clue about the kind of competition we're up against in Asia. Instead we continually invoke past glories which every day are further in the past.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2013 - 11:04am PT
Our Republicans are hoping to degrade our education system and ecomonics to the point that we become the slave labor for Asia
Since they have no control over what Asia does, we are their last hope.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 13, 2013 - 11:36am PT
Our Republicans are hoping to degrade our education system and ecomonics to the point that we become the slave labor for Asia

Interesting.

I guess your DEM Gov cutting 48% of the states edu budget thus resulting in CA dropping down to 49th in school Spending Nation wide, thoroughly enhances the caliber and quality of public K-12 education.

Got it.

http://www.edsource.org/today/2013/california-drops-to-49th-in-school-spending-in-annual-ed-week-report/25379#.UjNa4cY3uCk
sullly

Trad climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 11:49am PT
Commonwealth Club SF, Oct. 14. Yessss!


UPCOMING EVENT
Living in the Material World: The Future of the Humanities


Mon, Oct 14 2013 - 6:00pm
Tyler Stovall, Dean, Undergraduate Division, College of Letters & Science, UC Berkeley
Ralph Lewin, President and CEO, Cal Humanities
Katie McDonough, Humanities and Arts Initiatives Coordinator, Office of
the Dean, School of Humanities and Sciences, Stanford University

Material culture in the last two centuries has often overshadowed the pursuit of subtler forms of happiness and understanding grouped under the title Humanities. Recently even the great universities, the last strongholds of liberal education, have been struggling to define the value of critical thinking versus career building. Where will subtler pursuits fit within the cultural onslaught of materialism?

MLF: HUMANITIES
Location: SF Club Office
Time: 5:30 p.m. networking reception, 6 p.m. program
Cost: $20 non-members, MEMBERS FREE, $7 students (with valid ID)
Program Organizer: George Hammond
Also know: In association with Humanities West

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 13, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Where will subtler pursuits fit within the cultural onslaught of materialism?

I don't know but my advice - don't ask Leon Weitseltier. ;)

By the way, have you ever noticed how "materialism" in economics gives "materialism" in science (in biology and physics) a bad name. Observations: (1) Language, ambiguity thereof, sucks! (2) Your opponents in debates are always ready and eager to conjoin the two - so the koodies of one infect the other.

Ever the materialist in biology, anyone who knows me knows I am far far afield of "materialism" in career or economics.

It just so happens the whole universe is made of... wait for it... material.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
One of the major problems it seems is that no one in the U.S. has a clue about the kind of competition we're up against in Asia. Instead we continually invoke past glories which every day are further in the pas

True.
I should have been clearer in characterizing the state of education in the west as being increasingly geared towards draconian economic competition due to much greater challenge from Asia and elsewhere in the foreseeable future. (The development of the " Common Core" is a ready example of this.) http://www.corestandards.org/
In any case this all more or less bolsters my general point about the ultimate fate of creativity and humanities based curricula. If such curricula are at the bottom now just imagine where they'll be in the future.

Take the simplified analogy of a Hunter/gatherer tribe. When there is sparse competition and plenty of local resources our tribe has the luxury of sitting around donating more time and effort into making little trinkets, amulets, and other expression of creative art.
When a competing tribe moves in to challenge their local hegemony suddenly there is less time for such rarefied pursuits--- as the original inhabitants mobilize to face the new threatening challenge .
WBraun

climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
It just so happens the whole universe is made of... wait for it... material.


Actually it's completely spiritual in the absolute sense.

When you're under the clutches of duality then due to poor fund of knowledge of the absolute whole you "believe" it's completely material.

It never is nor was.

It's none other than the inferior energy of God.

There is his superior energy also that the modern so called scientists completely miss .....
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 13, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Werner gets it.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 13, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Actually it's completely spiritual in the absolute sense.

Or it's not.

Only a weak mind sees things as absolute.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 13, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Believe the smoking duck-god WBraun...
... or not... ;o)
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 13, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
It will be interesting to see Ward, how it works out. We could as a society respond by waking up and getting more competitive and there are indications of that. Or we could retreat into a kind of nativistic religion where we look to the past and ignore materialism altogether. Right now it seems that both approaches are being taken by minorities of the populace while the vast majority plod on wondering what's happening.Then again, even if we become half of what we were, we still live in a country with so many resources that we'll still be better off than most others on the planet, and perhaps that's what the plodding majority sense already.It isn't the traditional American dream at any level, but we might decide, given the rest of the planet's oncoming travails, that it's good enough.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
We could as a society respond by waking up and getting more competitive and there are indications of that. Or we could retreat into a kind of nativistic religion where we look to the past and ignore materialism altogether. Right now it seems that both approaches are being taken by minorities of the populace while the vast majority plod on wondering what's happening.

I think that global forces are beginning to arrange for a paradigm shift in this regard ,Jan.
The US has been living in a bubble since WWII . Our economy has been preeminent. We have hitherto called all our own shots . Because we have enjoyed the better part of a century devoid of any real competition, such a pampered state has conditioned us to think and behave in certain kinds of ways that tends to render us incapable of looking around the corner, or of pulling up our pants .We assume that our present status will continue unabated, along with the hubris of thinking we are the sole controllers of our own destiny .

I see this all undergoing a radical transformation. The chickens will come home to roost.
We are now just another player in a global card game and becoming gradually subject to the same rules as every other player.
This in and of itself will produce tremendous change in the years ahead. We have a political system that will continue to hobble us with multi- trillion dollar debt. We have no major manufacturing base any longer, our educational system is becoming woefully incapable of meeting the challenge, and more of our notes are being held by the other players.
Despite our strengths we are becoming increasingly vulnerable on every front.

I don't think we'll be allowed to sit around and get overly religious, or any other inappropriate response to this dilemma, such as class warfare, elitist social engineering, political tinkering and squabbling, or, alas , over- reactions to religious zealots.
Our problems have rapidly outgrown the traditional hackneyed responses and empty nostrums.
It's soon becoming the fish or cut bait moment--- a harshness we as a society haven't faced for quite some time.
We've been living like a bunch of spoiled rich kids who refuse to realize daddy's estate is in serious hock to the village bankers who grow increasingly sullen.

Yes it will be interesting to see if the current generations have the Mojo to face these predicaments head- on, or in lieu of that , as you suggest , sort of just lie down, dial into their social media and celebrity culture, and take a Rip Van Winkle nap, while other regions , and other cultures seize the lead and the sharp end of the rope in the world economy.

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 13, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
Another moment of truth is when we finally wake up to the 1% and how much they have drained from the rest of us while they got their minions re-elected with flag waving and Bible thumping.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 13, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
Paging Dr. F...

Positivism
As Christians, we derive our worldview from God’s Word. But there are others who only believe things they can prove with scientific testing. They believe that talk about God is meaningless because we can’t see, smell, taste, touch or hear Him. In this message, you’ll hear why “Positivism” as a worldview is insufficient.

http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/audio/positivism1/

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 13, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
It just so happens the whole universe is made of... wait for it... material.


The Universe is thought to consist of three types of substance: normal matter, as fruit pointed out above, ‘dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’.

Normal matter consists of the atoms that make up stars, planets, human beings and every other visible object in the Universe.

As humbling as it sounds, normal matter almost certainly accounts for the smallest proportion of the Universe, somewhere between 1% and 10%.

What's more, even this normal matter is not the solid stuff his fruitness hopes for. Behold the the concept of matter waves or de Broglie waves, "reflecting the wave–particle duality of matter, or the particle-wave duality of waves, depending on how you frame it."

JL
MH2

climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
Believe the smoking duck-god WBraun


Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
A little bowl of pebbles that grow
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