Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 16961 - 16980 of total 22780 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
QITNL

climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 01:26am PT
Yeah - we're cool. Shakespeare is a great example. It looks like gibberish to most of us now, but the way he wrapped ideas with words had never been done before. Whoever the hell he was, we'll never know.

That's my beef with Searle, he's all about the intentionality of the author, I'm like, are you freaking kidding me? There is so much more to be learned.

If you want to talk about English verse, start with the Simpsons and work back to Shakespeare. If you want to talk about sentience itself, you're gonna have to go a lot further back, toss all sorts of false crutches, reverse-ikea all sorts of language.

I'd rather climb mountains and keep my thoughts to myself.

When Largo gets back, he's gonna be pissed, I'm gonna hide in the car.
jstan

climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 01:52am PT
Speaking of Shakespeare, Google up Sir Ken Richardson's 2009 TED talk on schools and creativity. Went viral for good reasons. Interesting take on Shakespeare.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Because to hear it spoken is sometimes enough….

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 11, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
This is what it means to be an American.

jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 11, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
Nice
jstan

climber
Sep 11, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJZQwy9dvE

Dan Dennett discusses five "good reasons for "believing" in god."

According to Dawkins, Dennett is a "scientific philosopher."
This is real philosophy. Right out of Socrates' playbook.

Very deep but very clear. Not murky. Definitely not murky.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 11, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
This is real philosophy

Isn't everything that's real starts out as philosophy?
Definitely everything today, science, politics, economics, societics, etc, etc.
I'll even ask, couldn't the beginning of the universe been a philosophy?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 12, 2013 - 08:46am PT
According to Dawkins, Dennett is a "scientific philosopher."
This is real philosophy. Right out of Socrates' playbook.
Very deep but very clear. Not murky. Definitely not murky.

I question whether you've read much of either.

Philosophy has invariably been murky. That is its nature. Philosophers are looking for and to articulate the Truth, Beauty, and the Good. Not one of those is amenable to easy definition. On the other hand, if you think you can say what any of those are, please do so here. The presentations of philosophers tend to be long, laborious, and difficult to get through. That includes Mr. Dennett and Mr. Dawkins own works, even on YouTube. Socrates is no easy read, either.

Science and its findings is hardly clear, clean, and tractable. To most naive or novice learners, it might look so. Pick out a scientific journal of your choosing and read the articles in an issue. I'll let that experience provide your own evaluations, and I'd like very much to hear what they would be.

What *appears* to be clear and obvious are labels, categories, models, frameworks, abstractions at the most generalized level of understanding. Usually those are presented with the words, ". . . everyone knows that . . . ."

What IS deep, not murky--very clear--is experience. You have it no matter where you go, what you do, or who you are. You need no tools, no theories, no teaching, no aids, and no one to tell you how to do it.

Science and philosophy are only trying to help you see what is right in front of you. But they are very poor, incomplete, and biased methods and approaches. They breed the illusion that They Are Real, while experience is not. It's funny, really.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 09:59am PT
What IS deep, not murky--very clear--is experience. You have it no matter where you go, what you do, or who you are. You need no tools, no theories, no teaching, no aids, and no one to tell you how to do it.

This is an ideal concept that excludes a significant portion of the world that humans actually find themselves in and is about as useful as a grocery bag without groceries.
In order to catapult the primacy of subjective experience into a preferred mainstay of truth we have to ignore both the central predicament and defining nature of human life---those things we share in our collective world-- our civilization, our technologies, our philosophies, our mutual survival as a social species.

Subjective experience , experience in general, is not clear and magically cleansed of murkiness--- quite the contrary. Solitary human experience is intrinsically replete with misunderstanding, maladjustments ,self-deception, egoism, and delusion. A source of much grief. These maladies are sometimes superimposed by others upon the individual, but many are self-originating and seem to be inherent in the natural organic condition of human brain functioning.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 12, 2013 - 10:11am PT
Mentioned by jstan and posted before, but well worth a repetition - Sir Ken Robinson: Do schools kill creativity?



Ralph Richardson - Russell Harty TV Show

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Sir Ken is a very funny man with wonderful ideas. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Unfortunately his prescriptions for education are way too idealistic for the contemporary world and the foreseeable future.
Education will continue to be driven primarily by draconian economic competition and not the restrained Utopianism of educators in a few western democracies currently with the money to blow on creativity agendas.
Sad but true.
MH2

climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 11:04am PT
Sort of what Ward says. We are social animals. Science and philosophy are community endeavors with the good and bad that go with that. From when you are born and perhaps even before, your subjective world is continually modified by trials and errors in the objective world and you start forming and testing hypotheses. If you don't learn you are at a disadvantage and your fellow humans can steer you wrong, but they are more likely to save you a lot of time, effort, and risk by teaching you what has already been learned.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 11:16am PT
by teaching you what has already been learned.

And most of that crucial learning takes place before the individual leaves home for school.

It is carried out by the parents , or others, who are motivated by Love.

If that scenario fails then the consequences for society and the individual is usually tragic.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 12, 2013 - 11:34am PT
Philosophy has invariably been murky

I took a senior level course in philosophy at the U of GA in 1958 and was bewildered when reading directly several of the philosophers we studied - until the professor suggested I read commentary by others before trying to decipher the masters. It worked.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 12, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
This is an ideal . . .


i·de·al
1. A conception of something in its absolute perfection.
2. One that is regarded as a standard or model of perfection or excellence.
3. An ultimate object of endeavor; a goal.
4. An honorable or worthy principle or aim.

. . . concept that excludes a significant portion of the world that humans actually find themselves in and is about as useful as a grocery bag without groceries.

And here we go again with what is real and what is not real. What is real, say you and your supporters, is what consensual reality says it is. What consensual reality says is real is what is indicated by labels, concepts, models, and abstractions. (There should be no contention with this statement.)

In order to catapult the primacy of subjective experience into a preferred mainstay of truth we have to ignore both the central predicament and defining nature of human life---those things we share in our collective world-- our civilization, our technologies, our philosophies, our mutual survival as a social species.


Says you. You are saying that the mainstay of truth is consensual reality. That reality, you say, is survival and what survival is reliant upon. Your concept of truth appears to be animalistic, primitive. Is that your sense of who and what you / we are? It would appear from this and earlier writing that you have no great view of Being. Being and existence appears to be dog eat dog, and clawing one's way to the top of a heap or detritus.

Subjective experience , experience in general, is not clear and magically cleansed of murkiness--- quite the contrary. Solitary human experience is intrinsically replete with misunderstanding, maladjustments ,self-deception, egoism, and delusion. A source of much grief. These maladies are sometimes superimposed by others upon the individual, but many are self-originating and seem to be inherent in the natural organic condition of human brain functioning.

You may be speaking for yourself, Ward. It's not what I find or see.

I suggest that you change your mind. Were you to achieve that, you might find your world changing right in front of your eyes.

What you believe is what you see.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 12, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

...ideal or perfect?
MH2

climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
What is real, say you and your supporters, is what consensual reality says it is. What consensual reality says is real is what is indicated by labels, concepts, models, and abstractions.

Could you say that another way, please? What do you mean when you say that agreed-upon reality is indicated by labels, etc.? Do you mean simply that we must communicate somehow if we are to look for agreement on what happens and why? The need for some kind of language seems unavoidable.

Do you mean to imply that reality IS labels, concepts, models, and abstractions?

Reality is big. It includes hallucinations, illusions, delusions, nightmares, deceptions, misinterpretations, misunderstandings, etc., but it doesn't have a voice that tells us directly what is real and what isn't. Reality only has phenomena that can be observed. Some events are suitable for discussion among interested observers and for finding reproducible patterns and distilling those patterns into theory which is testable. Not all of reality can be described or understood, so no one can say what reality IS, other than EVERYTHING, but that doesn't mean that certain parts of reality are not well-described and well-understood.
jstan

climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJZQwy9dvE

Many facets of Dennett's presentation are creative. Some of them have been mentioned here, but there is one which has not. He does not approach the question as to why intelligent thoughtful people declare there is a god. He does not claim

they are stupid or

they are just evil.

He goes through the possible real life causes for this and considers each in some detail. I leave it to you to listen to the talk and I won't presume to summarize something this good and this carefully constructed.

After listening to it I would like your comments on an important possible hypothesis with which I was left.

Americans believe our country is on the verge of becoming a failed state. States fail when the people lose sight of the thing that binds them all together. In our case it is our constitution and the proximate causes for the war for independence as stated in the declaration of independence.

In a failed state one must always be prepared for mortal combat. You can trust no one. In Rwanda you must always carry a machette.

Do we not have something very like this being advocated in the US?
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 13, 2013 - 02:32am PT
Education will continue to be driven primarily by draconian economic competition and not the restrained Utopianism of educators in a few western democracies currently with the money to blow on creativity agendas.

If that were true, kids would know 3 different languages, how to write code, as well as basic family planning by middle school. As it is, what kids learn is based on the dictates of the lowest common denominator:

If my kid's too dumb to learn this, then it shouldn't be taught at all.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 13, 2013 - 02:41am PT
I'm afraid you're right. In my first month back in this country I have been appalled at the lack of work ethic and low educational level of young people in the service industries. It has taken me up to half a dozen repeats to get any simple thing done correctly. I haven't had to do this much repetition and double checking since I lived in Nepal.
Messages 16961 - 16980 of total 22780 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews