Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 16961 - 16980 of total 22398 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Nov 4, 2013 - 12:11am PT
gobee can't grasp and understand numbers?
that figures
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 4, 2013 - 12:22am PT
Wow , some cages are getting rattled today. That's good.

Ward, your question is very well-stated. Excellent.

I appreciate that MikeL. I spend a little focus and effort trying to establish some clarity in my writing . It's very important to me that I convey my thought in a clear and interesting way.

I'll address some of Largo's responses tomorrow. They are so very tiresome...LOL
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Nov 4, 2013 - 12:48am PT
Mike and John, I appreciate your thoughtful replies.


;>)
manemachen

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:04am PT
Yoda also said, No Try.. DO..there is a higher calling and it develops through doing. There is also the spirit that manifests good and bad depending on the conscience and unconscience- it still comes down to "be here now' those moments that matter and change us- yes, change us. Otherwise, why bother?
WBraun

climber
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:06am PT
Largo -- "All we are saying is that there is a higher level view beyond the rational ..."

"There are some things stronger than a single human being." - Hannah Arendt
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 4, 2013 - 09:41am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#328840

A glimpse of Heaven...

THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur
THE GLORY OF HEAVEN, MacArthur

...I wanna see!

Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Nov 4, 2013 - 09:45am PT
"There are some things stronger than a single human being." - Hannah Arendt

Quite the statement of the obvious.

Stupid German-Americans!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 4, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
The fact that you'd use YOUR OWN evaluating mind to fence off a non-definable, non-provable, self-referential world proves the fact that you live within a religion of your own making.


Fortmemtal, what you've done in the above is to tie your mind in a knot. Most everything Mike and I have been saying makes it abundantly clear that so-called spiritual subject matter is not a matter of "fencing off" stuff "out there" with the evaluating mind.

Your insistence that this is so, that this is in fact what we are doing, vouchsafes your fusion to the evaluating mind. It's no more complicated than that.

You cannot even imagine what terrain is being traversed here, and instead, your evaluating mind slips into a rote rant about non-definable (you want a measurement!) non-provable (you want a kind of existential quadratic equation we can factor and be RIGHT), self-referential (you want an independent reference point - though none exists, ever, anywhere) stuff that you label a "religion" (full of doctrine and beliefs, even though Mike and I have said for going on two years that there are no such beliefs), all "of our own making."

In fact the process is sitting down, shutting up, getting still and quiet and seeing what your life is. When you default into evaluating, the immediacy, the unborn quality is suddenly gone and you end up with yet another silly rant about people making stuff up.

Like I have said many times, the evaluating mind does not like to be challenged. The illusion is that there is an "I" or conscious ego-self there that is orchestrating these rants about "non-definable, non-provable, self-referential" stuff, when in fact the evaluating mind, feeling a challenge, is simply operating on auto pilot, demanding the discussion be couched on it's own terms, since it understands no other.

Again, rather than go on a rant, why not ask a question and maybe we can cover some ground. What is it, Fortmental, that you don't understand?

Watch the fireworks on that one . . .

JL
MH2

climber
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
Like I have said many times, the evaluating mind does not like to be challenged.


Is that not a fence? On one side the evaluating mind, on the other side something else?
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 4, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
I understand fully now: we truly live in separate magesteria and there is no point in communicating across them using familiar words.



Jan...
Yours are some of the only posts I find worthy of follow up. You wrote some posts back that the Celts used a base20 number system and that the French counting system incorporated it as per your example.

I was highly skeptical. The Celts, as far as I can tell, were number numbskulls and unlike the Mayans, would have had little use for such a complicated counting method. A little research later and I found that the Celts had both a 29/30 day lunar calendar as well as a simple, widely available base10 counting system (that made trade with Romans seamless). However, they did incorporate some of the Latin terminology that then found it's way into the Breton language. Not particularly unique as Europe is full of regional difference in what numbers past "many' are called.

However, I was intrigued to read that northern celts of the far british isles use twenty as a place holding mechanism, but this is NOT the same thing as a base20 system. It's just a simplified way of keeping track of sheep numbers in grazing allotments.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 4, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Like I have said many times, the evaluating mind does not like to be challenged.


Is that not a fence? On one side the evaluating mind, on the other side something else?



No. There is no fence. You let go of the agency that would set up a fence. You are thinking that by becoming unfused of the evaluating mind, we are dissing it, or pushing it aside. What agency pushes it aside if not the super-ego (inner critic), after the evaluating mind has decided that it must be transcended. That's not the process. Nothing is excluded. It's ALL inclusive, but there is no identifying with any thing.

The invitation to Fortmental to ask a question was in fact a trick question. We know all along that he can never ask a question because he is only into making declarations about the non-discursive being this and that (all evaluations) while expecting any descriptions to be fodder for further evaluations. That another point of view and an another discussion is possible is considered untoward because it cannot transpire on Fort's own terms ergo it must be either not worth pursuing or the most specious horsefeathers. This is what I have called dishonesty in this discussion, and kills it in the water. Rather than say, I don't understand this, or anything that is not a quantification of some kind, I will project my evaluations onto the subject and riff incomprehensibly on that.

But there's no arguing with someone locked into a perspective.

I mean no disrespect with any of my comments here. But keep in mind that if I assailed the scientific world with the same arguments and methods Fort is using, I would be railroaded right out of here. If I don't know something about science, I say so and ask one of my science friends, I don't go off on rants attempting to wheedle what I don't know into terms or constructs that I do, insisting that I in fact understand the subject perfectly. It's like this, see . . .

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Nov 4, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
Rather than say, I don't understand this, or anything that is not a quantification of some kind, I will project my evaluations onto the subject and riff incomprehensibly on that.

manemachen

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 4, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
logic- a squirrel cage, when I read the word, relative, I get lost because that implies comparison which implies judgement which implies bias which comes from experience. I get right back to "be here now" & listening to the still small voice that guides me through right and wrong. indeed, platos cave & the human condition seem unchangeable except through the miraculous. The glint of sin exposing defects I have been oblivious too. I am never changed through my thoughts. I am changed through trials by fire and I go kicking and screaming until I surrender. My husband says that when I cry, he knows that my battle is finally over. Too much ego for this conversation.
The only original thought is found in nature. I am going outside now, it's been fun in a concentric circle kind of way..BTW-
Dr F -I have never seen flowers like those before- what are they? when I warm up again after holding halter ropes this afternoon it will be time for tequila and considering how I have always felt a little humbled by the camp 4 crowd.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 4, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
I am never changed through my thoughts. I am changed through trials by fire and I go kicking and screaming until I surrender.


+1

As you say, thoughts are like squirrels on a cage.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Nov 4, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
As you say, thoughts are like squirrels on a cage.

No, no.

Thoughts are colorful birds.

Shy and difficult to catch.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Nov 4, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Zen Master Seung Sahn had a teaching tool he called the zen circle. from 0 to 90 degrees was "attachment to Name and Form", I like this I don't like that etc. I am here you are there etc.

(90 degrees to 180 degrees is attachment to concepts and thinking mind. at 90 degrees you realize you can observe your thinking mind (you start meditating) There is attachment to thinking.

at 180 degrees is empty mind "before thinking mind" but you are also attached to empty mind or emptiness. I don't much like the description as emptiness because it gets interpreted as nothingness. I think a better description would be interconnectedness or no separation.

at 270 degrees is freedom mind ( lots of energy and ability to percieve things very well) there is also attachment to freedom here.

at 360 degrees is the same place as 0 degrees but there are no attachments to thinking, no hinderances., things are just as they are Mountain is a Mountain, tired go to sleep someone is hungry give them food.

Here is a link that talks about the zen circle http://www.blueheronzen.org/wp/teachings/the-zen-circle/


MH2

climber
Nov 4, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
No. There is no fence. You let go of the agency that would set up a fence.


Why does that, in your words, "challenge the evaluating mind?"
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 5, 2013 - 01:39am PT
.... 40 billion habitable Earth-size planets in the galaxy
 A new, recent estimate from UC Berkeley

....We also find that the occurrence of Earth-size planets is constant with increasing orbital period (P), within equal intervals of logP up to ∼200 d. Extrapolating, one finds Formula% of Sun-like stars harbor an Earth-size planet with orbital periods of 200–400 d.

Surely they won't all be the same. Did god create their beings in his image? Why haven't we heard from them? What do those lizard people do for recreation? What do they make of fossils? Were any NEVER hit by asteroids? What if their atmosphere is so O2 saturated, that they have no need of a diaphragm? Why do THEY think their sky is blue? What's the smartest animal on a planet with no land? Will their tectonics be different on a planet containing less calcium? What's life like on a planet that spins s-l-o-w-l-y? Is chlorophyll inevitable? Do they torture their pompous intellectuals? Do the insect races use hydrocarbons? Do their robots also have rights? What's the climbing like on a very large planet? Have any of them invented surfing yet? Which planets have enslaved the mammals? Do they know what the "Prime Directive" is?

Inquiring minds wanna know!


(...cuz post-modern zen mystics aren't interested)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 5, 2013 - 10:05am PT
??????
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 5, 2013 - 10:28am PT
PSP:

Yeah, I think I'm attached to emptiness pretty much these days, and I think I've been there for a while. Sort of like Jonah being in the whale. It can be pretty dark.

After my wife fell down the stairs, came out of the ICU, and finally recovered from her brain injuries, she started saying "it doesn't matter" to almost everything, and the phrase started to suit me too in the emptiness state that I was experiencing as well. Now we say it to each other regularly at different times and give each other a knowing smile when we do. Perhaps brain injuries are a short path (a reboot, like JL said).

I would add that "before thinking mind" probably doesn't mean that the mind no longer thinks, but that the thoughts are no longer taken seriously or concretely. They tend to "self-liberate" (a Dzogchen term) in that quadrant. They are like fireworks. Randisi's colorful birds. (Er, but I don't think you catch them--they catch you.)
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