Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Nov 3, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
Werner +1.

Ward, your question is very well-stated. Excellent.

You have articulated the conundrum or dilemma of a discursive mind. (Largo may provide another take on it.) I'm not sure there is an answer for you. Perhaps a better question might be: what should be done with dilemmas or paradoxes?

Hegel said that paradoxes, dilemmas, or polarities should be transcended with a new thesis. That thesis would need to take a higher-leveled view that would subsume both ends of a polarity.

(Pardon me for leading.) So my argument is what goes beyond (for example) rationality and irrationality in order to subsume both? (This assumes that you think Hegel had something to say.)

Fruity, don't take it so poorly. I meant no personal harm. You yourself say that you are highly passionate. Truly, I appreciate it. But like many passions, they sometimes start fires that rage out of control. Passion seems to be a tricky thing to manage. Personally I'd make distinctions between what are obsessions and what one cannot help but be.

Boulder climber
Nov 3, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
What some of us are saying is what is apparently lost to you, and all those welded to scientism, is that so long as you are a human being, numbers and evaluations will always be secondary to your fundamental reality, which is not a number or a stat (JL)

And those numbers and evaluations serve to elevate us above a vacuous state of being. Imagine a world composed of people who simply go with the flow or avoid analytic thought. There must be a balance, which I suppose is what you are saying with your proviso that "experiential" comes first. A matter of priorities.

If I were taking MikeL's course I would indeed be perplexed at the notions he espouses, but it would certainly make me think, engaging my rational mind.

I'm the only one here, I believe, who actually works in the field of this title (HFCS)
There are several "fields" in this title. What is it you do?

Perhaps a better question might be: what should be done with dilemmas or paradoxes? (MikeL)
Actually, the question he poses is pretty damn good. Jumping up the meta-rung can seem like a cop-out.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 3, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
Hegel said that paradoxes, dilemmas, or polarities should be transcended with a new thesis. That thesis would need to take a higher-leveled view that would subsume both ends of a polarity.

I would agree that the mutually exclusive , as you put it , rational /irrational--- does fully qualify as a type of bona fide Hegelian antithesis; despite the fact that Hegel was postulating a purely historical dynamic.

The important difference is the question of Truth. Hegel described an organic process in history that merely haphazardly lurched from antithesis to thesis without outstanding claims or revelations of truth inherent in this historical process (other than idealistic and political) Any truth contained in the Hegelian universe was entirely contained within his theory. LOL
My memory may be failing me here but I don't think Hegel in any concrete , systematic way advanced the postulate that history was a process of continuous refinement resulting in an eventual arrival at any type of ontological or metaphysical Truth.
If he did he was frigging out of his mind.

We can take the Hegelian dynamic as a operative analogy for our purposes, as you suggested.

I am optimistic that a synthesis of opposing viewpoints might one day be possible, in a natural process, with the question of the ultimate Truth solved as a result of this ideal transcendence.
Let's not leave out the search for Truth in the all of this.


Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 3, 2013 - 03:41pm PT

Regardless of all the hoopla...

the end result will be the same for us all...

Over and out!!!...



Hebrews 1:3
Nov 3, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
Regardless of all the hoopla...

the end result will be the same for us all...

Yup, Heaven or hell!

Sport climber
Nov 3, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
The Map Makers▕ Religion: The Mercator Atlas 1572

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 3, 2013 - 04:14pm PT

Religions across the world have been dangling eternity in hell as a sort of carrot and stick approach since the dawn of time.

If someone believes in God merely to go to Heaven, then that is a sorry excuse. The bible spends little time on this in the new testament, and if you want to read us the old testament version of an angry and jealous God I have to ask:

Who is he jealous of? He is the one true God, right? Are there other Gods that make him jealous? Now what does that statement imply?

Most texts also warn direly of false prophets. I ask my Mormon visitors about this every year: How am I supposed to know who is a false prophet? People have subdivided religion, even just Christianity, in so many ways.

I remember, being raised a polite Methodist, and joining a friend at a Baptist revival one year at about age 13. They went on and on how you had to be "saved" to get into heaven. They all urged me to go up there and get saved, so I did. Then a bunch of men took me into a back room and explained it all and prayed with me. They took it as a great thing. I never heard a peep about getting saved as a Methodist. At the most, we had a tender baptism where they sprinkled water upon my head.

Werner, of course you know that there is a soul. Like Go-B you have faith in your beliefs, and are quite sure of them. Now to Go-B, who probably chows down on meat, what can a Christian expect in the next life? Say he works at a slaughter house for a job? Will he come back as a worm?

It all gets very complicated, and how can they all be correct? How am I supposed to pick from all of the world's religions?

My view: No compassionate God would send people to hell for eternal damnation for any reason whatsoever. As humans, we are prone to making mistakes in our lives. God made us that way. Now if he made us that way, and is all knowing, that means he knows ahead of time what our sins will be. So the system is rigged from the beginning.

I believe that there are qualities that every person should have. Compassion, empathy, and humility. I didn't come to those beliefs in a book. I came to that conclusion after going through my own growing up and the troubles I had.

I don't believe that a God would send anyone to hell, and if you have proof of a soul, then I would like to hear it. Not a mathematical or scientific explanation, but one based on your religious experiences.

Just pointing at yourself doesn't mean that you have an ever lasting soul.

A soul, by definition, is not material, and even though the speak with the tongues of angels, for all I know it is made up gibberish.

Don't forget to send me a love offering. I take cash and all major credit cards.

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 3, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
You can always tell who the rich kids are..oh the luxuries they piss away..My experience is that you f*#k up a lot in your twenties, you fix it in your thirties, you reap the benefit in your forties, you try not to lose it all in your fifties and you reinvent it in your sixties. It has been a wild ride and I haven't killed any one including myself, but I have more dead acquaintances than live ones-so, cutting the crap that I have no power over anyway, leaves with the words from "The Cowboys"- a story about the rites of passage- John Wayne's line? "we're burning daylight". ;-)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 3, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
The Cowboys"- a story about the rites of passage- John Wayne' line? "we're burning daylight".

Excellent movie. Bruce Dern had more or less perfected his type of Western bad guy . The Duke was in rare form in one of his last movies.
The location shots were very well done.
The boys all did a great job for young actors in less than ideal conditions. They all praised Duke afterwards, and still do.

Trotter gives it four stars.

Nov 3, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Proof of the soul is none other than YOU.

No need for all your religious mumbo jumbo you just put up.

You people make your lives so complicated no wonder you're all so bewildered all the time ....

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 3, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
It has come to me via my time in Mexico, the contrast between cultural expectations. Our society in the US expects things to get fixed- especially in the health industry. Mexicans have more acceptance of things as they are. Death is part of living and some sh#t does not need fixing, obviously broken or not. The difference is how they go about burning daylight-priorities. Corazon, love that fills you with joy is a common pursuit in Mexico
Having also spent time (YEARS) in Germany with people that were in their late teens and early twenties during WWII - technology was the hold that transfixed the "zeitgeist" . Religion was superstition. After WWII, the center of Germany became pro-communist to help absolve the self centered lack of humanity that took their culture to their knees. Churches before or after were/are supported by taxes, not individuals, so the place looks a lot more religious that it is. The money moved to the south of the country- less populated and closer to Swiss banks..not from a history book, from the people I knew..pass the Jaeger.. naah.. Tequila..I forgot, it is not my job to educate anyone, I can't help myself, I piss away luxuries too, like sunshine and warm weather and my horse running to me when she sees me, it is just so fun to throw something in. Now- out to clean the corral. I am burning daylight.

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 3, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
WARD, dear, "relevance" was the word that stymied me..

in case you noticed.. I DO talk to myself a lot. Corral is clean but, shit!, it is cold out there. Tequila.........

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 3, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
What is contained within the experience of the non-discursive mind that informs that mind that it is incorrect to consider data . . .


What I am saying, Ward, is that you are identified with the evaluating mind that you cannot see it operating. You ARE the evaluating mind. Look at the above quote. "Informs that mind that it is incorrect" is in fact the evaluating mind evaluating, meaning you never got outside of that mindset in the first place. From within the evaluating mind we assume that an evaluation about data is the diving factor in the conversation. It's not. It never is.

At a deeper level is the illusion that evaluating and knowing are selfsame, or put differently, that truth about reality is always the sole currency of an evaluation, measurement, or some kind of quantification. We're simply saying that is is not only an illusion, it is something we can never grasp so long as we are evaluating, and when it comes time to look at some other mode or avenue, we will perforce require an evaluation to "get our heads around it."

When looked at in this light you might start to get some sense per how the evaluating mind is a closed loop - you are literally chained inside Plato's cave and don't know it.

None of this is a knock on evaluating, which is what most of us do all day every day, myself included. That's how we negotiate our way in the physical world. But the game is broader than that. It's really no more complicated than that.


Hebrews 1:3
Nov 3, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 5:24 [ Life and Judgment Are Through the Son ] “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

John 8:16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out
John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Revelation 14:7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it

1 Corinthians 15:55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”

Revelation 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

John 10:7 [ Jesus the Good Shepherd ] Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.

Boulder climber
Nov 3, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
Hegel said that paradoxes, dilemmas, or polarities should be transcended with a new thesis. That thesis would need to take a higher-leveled view that would subsume both ends of a polarity

The three stages he described ended with a higher-level view grounded in the rational.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 3, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
The three stages he described ended with a higher-level view grounded in the rational.

I remember the Hegalian Dilectic back in undergraduate school.

All we are saying is that there is a higher level view beyond the rational which is NOT irrational nor is it evaluating.

Simply note that you will evaluate this statement. A subtler and serious view would ask: What is he talking about and what must I do to understand this? To those fused to the evaluating mind, said mind always wants things on it's own terms - that is, I should be able to grasp non-evaluating by way of an evaluation. Isn't that a remarkable take on this all?

Expecting to evaluate non-evaluating is what is known in spiritual corners as "wanting something for nothing," and is roughly the equal of a person saying they want to understand millennium math problems, for example, without doing any special study of the topic, or any study at all. I simply want you to tell me, the argument goes, in language plain enough so I can evaluate for myself if millennium math is real or not. Such an assertion would be considered the work of a simpleton who wants something for nothing. Same thing here.

All "higher views" require a lot of hard work and dedication and you'll never understand the work before you do it. How could you? The most any teacher can do is to direct you how to start studying and practicing the subject matter, making course corrections along the way till you get it down. That's the learning process. It's pretty much dead empirical so far as I've seen.


Nov 3, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
Twas bryllyg, and ye slythy toves
Did gyre and gymble in ye wabe

Simply note that you will evaluate this statement. A subtler and serious view would ask: What is he talking about and what must I do to understand this?

Nov 3, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
Actually, the question he poses is pretty damn good. Jumping up the meta-rung can seem like a cop-out.

Sure. I think hear you, John.

What do we mean by "good"?

The three stages he described ended with a higher-level view grounded in the rational.

Most of the experiences that occur in our daily lives are not rational: the emotions that are tied up with people that we love or hate, the stories that we read or see played in a medium, our instincts (bodily movement, digestion, pain), and of course sleep and dreams. Sure, we construct explanations about why we think those things are important or how they are happening, but none of those explanations / evaluations change our consciousness. The basic nature of our sight doesn't change; our sense of smell doesn't change; our sense of touch doesn't change. Whether or not I understand neurobiology or physics doesn't affect my sensations of the world. Even if I push things around in the world, none of that changes the essence of my consciousness. All that changes are my thoughts, my interpretations, my evaluations, my attractions, my aversions. But my consciousness--and hence felt reality--doesn't change an iota. As someone once said (it's attributed to a long list of people), "no matter where you go, there you are."

Emotions, instincts, myths, the evaluating mind, our sense of "I", etc. are consciousness.

These different kind of experiences--those that are not rationality-in-practice--are just other means of being. They are other discovered facets of consciousness. There is no good or bad about any of them. They are just different. Diss'ing or elevating myth, emotion, instinct, or directive mental processes is silly and deficient. (What kind of life would one have if one tried to get on without any of them?) And there are probably others that we have yet to discover or articulate. We cannot describe rationality with emotion, nor with instinct, or vice versa. We may come up with explanations, but we can't describe the experience of one in the language of another. At best we're just pointing.

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 4, 2013 - 12:07am PT
Jargon simply refers to special terms used by a profession which are hard for those outside of the profession to grasp and understand. Jargon is language. Symbols. The language/jargon of science is numbers and stats, which are collected together for reference or analysis. What you are calling data. To you, slaved to the evaluating mind, said data is especially "real," valid, and true. And you believe this emphatically because according to your mental process, it is "so."

It's amazing that you'd INSIST on calling "data" - jargon, as if it were part of a language. Data, or information, like Michelangelo's sculptures, only waits for reason to carve it out from it's matrix; it exists independent of "jargon" or even you or me.

The fact that you'd use YOUR OWN evaluating mind to fence off a non-definable, non-provable, self-referential world proves the fact that you live within a religion of your own making. What you believe, and more importantly, how you believe it, makes you, Go-B, the corner rabbi, Al Quaeda, and MikeL kissing cousins, immune to reason, proof, and consistent explanations. Of course, you'll lamely twist this paragraph to state that the same could be said of the entirety of mathematics, or even science itself. Go ahead, I don't give a shiht. Cook up your own vocabulary, create new fantasy definitions, and remember to pull up the signs behind you on your way to post-modern mystical mumbo-jumbo land. No one's interested in following you....in case you hadn't noticed.

However, it's my experience from my contemplative practices that if you look at a question long enough, it tends to disappear. One comes to see that there is no real question.

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