Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 16901 - 16920 of total 22761 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
What did you expect, jgill? That the Taco Philosophers would come to some conclusion that 10,000 years of society have failed to grasp?

DMT
WBraun

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
jgill -- But it does entertain.

It has to entertain!

This ain't no stinkin labcoat forum ........
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Hey, I'm actually tryig to stay on track per the terms that Fruity lobs out there. I'll admit to pulling his chain with know-it-all tone harangues but that's the fun of it, the entertainment. But for real, he says I'm "mixing (mechanistic) reduction with data (info) and prediction, which only makes a mess of it."

The fact is, if Fruity or anyone else here ever bothered to look at how "reductionism" is actually defined in both science and philosophy of science, it is not something applied to a static thing, but refers to the process of things through time and space. And in that process, there is no separating out causalty from mechanistic factors. Fruity wants to cling to a strict mechanistic model because if the whole is no greater than the parts, then he can keep saying that mind is what the brain does. There isn't anything beyond the meat. Mind, ergo, IS meat.

However when you introduce causation into the mix, married to a mechanistic view of things, you have to be able to reverse engineer all phenomenon to antecedent or fundamental properties (this is what Ed was saying about all reality being physically based - yu can work your way backward from complex to fundamental and you will always arrive back to matter, the thinkign goes). And in the case of mind, that means we have to be able to follow the causal chain down to the very moment and link where mind emerged from matter, and that's where it gets "messy" to use Fruity's term, because we can't do so.

You have to be a little crazy to find this stuff interesting, but if you can follow the logic of it all, a mechanistic view of the world MUST be sequential. Random and chaotic factors chip in but they do so with mechanical precision. The only other option is that we can arrive at a place in time and space UNREDUCABLE to prior physical causes and/or influences and factors. That would mean that rather than tied to the past by way of a mechanical - causal chain, at least some events would be singularities, in a sense. And Fruity ain't going there.

That much said, this is the most dysfunctional thing on earth but in fact I respect everyone weighing in. We all are trying to find out what is true. And that's a good thing. We might make a stink of it here but I'll bet no one on this list is causing the kind of harm in the world that makes us cringe. We're bickering. People are gassing each other in Syria. And that is tragic.
JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 26, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
Don't look now, but the quantifiers have breached the gates:



http://blog.bufferapp.com/how-meditation-affects-your-brain
MH2

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 26, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
Don't look now, but the quantifiers have breached the gates:

Yes, they have. But it's already been years since the pocket-protector gang have been able to consistently replicate one of the fundamental tenets of spiritualism: the "out of body" experience. No drugs, no near-death experience, no meditation. Just a simple EMF wand held near a specific part of the head. Works every time.

Next up....the voice of God.
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:25am PT
Random and chaotic factors chip in but they do so with mechanical precision. The only other option is that we can arrive at a place in time and space UNREDUCABLE to prior physical causes and/or influences and factors. That would mean that rather than tied to the past by way of a mechanical - causal chain, at least some events would be singularities, in a sense. And Fruity ain't going there.

No....no....nope.... and...... no.

There's nothing precise about evolution and there's nothing about the mind and consciousness that can't be reduced to the random mix-master that is evolution and chance exploited. Even Classicists are beginning to see the evolving id-ego-super ego in ancient texts and art works. You may think that this evolution is the product of learning and culture, and in some cases, it might be, however, an inevitable random genetic mutation got the ball rolling. It happenes a billion quadrillion times per minute, but until the right time and place comes along, it can't be exploited. Things don't just appear out of nothing. Unless you're a cosmologist.



Thank you for playing.....please try again.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:08am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#318268
photo not found
Missing photo ID#318269


Psalm 95:1 Oh come, let us sing to the Lord!
Let us shout joyfully to the Rock of our salvation.
2 Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving;
Let us shout joyfully to Him with psalms.
3 For the Lord is the great God,
And the great King above all gods.
4 In His hand are the deep places of the earth;
The heights of the hills are His also.
5 The sea is His, for He made it;
And His hands formed the dry land.
6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down;
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture,
And the sheep of His hand.

Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”



...you guys out of breath yet, enter God's rest!
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:33am PT
Matthew 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:37am PT
Trolling through prayer, lol.

DMT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 1, 2013 - 12:38am PT
"Anabel Hernández had to leave early, as so often, "to finish an article", and it was after she left that gunmen burst in. "Pointing rifles at my family, walking round the room – and taking wallets from people. But this was no robbery; no one tried to use any of the credit cards – it was pure intimidation, aimed at my family, and at me." It was more than a year before the authorities began looking for the assailants. And during that time the threats had continued: one afternoon last June, Hernández opened her front door to find decapitated animals in a box on the doorstep.

Hernández's offence was to write a book about the drug cartels that have wrought carnage across Mexico, taking some 80,000 lives, leaving a further 20,000 unaccounted for – and forging a new form of 21st-century warfare. But there have been other books about this bloodletting; what made Los Seńores del Narco different was its relentless narrative linking the syndicate that has driven much of the violence – the Sinaloa cartel, the biggest criminal organisation in the world – to the leadership of the Mexican state.

Her further sin against the establishment and cartels was that the book became, and remains, a bestseller: more than 100,000 copies sold in Mexico. The success is impossible to overstate, a staggering figure for a non-fiction book in a country with indices of income and literacy incomparable to the American-European book-buying market. The wildfire interest delivers a clear message, says Hernández: "So many Mexicans do not believe the official version of this war. They do not believe the government are good guys, fighting the cartels. They know the government is lying, they don't carry their heads in the clouds."

Anabel Hernández's book will be published in English this month with the title Narcoland: The Mexican Drug Lords and their Godfathers, so that we in the English-speaking world that consumes so much of what the cartels deal, and which banks their proceeds, might learn the lie of "cops and robbers", of "upright society versus the mafia" – the received wisdom that still contaminates coverage of drug wars and the "war on drugs".

Two writers in particular have been pioneering the struggle to counter this untruth: one is Hernández, and the other is Roberto Saviano – author of Gomorrah, about the Camorra of Naples – who writes in a foreword to Hernández's English edition: "Narcoland shows how contemporary capitalism is in no position to renounce the mafia. Because it is not the mafia that has transformed itself into a modern capitalist enterprise, it is capitalism that has transformed itself into a mafia. The rules of drug trafficking that Anabel Hernández describes are also the rules of capitalism.""
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Sep 1, 2013 - 01:53am PT
contemporary capitalism is in no position to renounce the mafia. Because it is not the mafia that has transformed itself into a modern capitalist enterprise, it is capitalism that has transformed itself into a mafia.

So depressingly true, on so many levels, everywhere. And it's only getting worse.

Just heard an interview with a Henri Lefebvre biographer/protege. Stunning stuff outta that guy!
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
contemporary capitalism is in no position to renounce the mafia. Because it is not the mafia that has transformed itself into a modern capitalist enterprise, it is capitalism that has transformed itself into a mafia.

The type of grotesque over-generalization from the imaginary world of those whose only alternative to capitalism is a non-existent fantasy world in which no one owns anything, or at worse an elitist state run totalitarian system in which goods are dispensed based upon political affiliations , and kept in place by fear of reeducation camps .
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 3, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Here's an interesting story:

Myths Over Miami
Captured on South Beach, Satan later escaped. His demons and the horrible Bloody Mary are now killing people. God has fled. Avenging angels hide out in the Everglades. And other tales from children in Dade's homeless shelters.


http://www.miaminewtimes.com/1997-06-05/news/myths-over-miami/

Folktales are usually an inheritance from family or homeland. But what if you are a child enduring a continual, grueling, dangerous journey? No adult can steel such a child against the outcast's fate: the endless slurs and snubs, the threats, the fear. What these determined children do is snatch dark and bright fragments of Halloween fables, TV news, and candy-colored Bible-story leaflets from street-corner preachers, and like birds building a nest from scraps, weave their own myths. The "secret stories" are carefully guarded knowledge, never shared with older siblings or parents for fear of being ridiculed -- or spanked for blasphemy. But their accounts of an exiled God who cannot or will not respond to human pleas as his angels wage war with Hell is, to shelter children, a plausible explanation for having no safe home, and one that engages them in an epic clash.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 3, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
Ward

You say:
"The type of grotesque over-generalization from the imaginary world of those whose only alternative to capitalism is a non-existent fantasy world in which no one owns anything, or at worse an elitist state run totalitarian system in which goods are dispensed based upon political affiliations , and kept in place by fear of reeducation camps"

Answer:
The article above concerns Italy and the Camorra of Naples, and the situation in Mexico. Read the books, the documentation. You see, you are the one overgeneralizing and distorting reality. I don't know your agenda for doing so, but your judgement is in this case incredibly weak. Maybe you are ideologically distorted and unable to see differences... Give it an honest try. If you cannot make it... well then you're lost...

Another weak side of capitalism - this time in America:
I think the American people have every reason to be concerned about the banks. The banks have used "imaginary or fake products" and information asymmetry to cheat a lot of Americans, haven't they? And then, at least at first, maybe still, claimed that individual Americans have made individual choices. Freedom, isn't that what it's called in America? Freedom to be cheated based on asymmetrical information. Are you of the opinion that regulation and control of banks isn't needed?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
When I hear these kinds of statements, I am reminded of Tim McVeigh. He is still very much forward in the memory of this state.

That's because the grasp and extent of your knowledge is hopelessly parochial ,self-centered, and uninformed.
Anyone who has followed my comments on this thread and elsewhere knows I am not the kind of individual you have referenced.

Are you equating the broad based philosophical defense of capitalism and democracy and the criticism of totalitarian socialism with a deranged boogeyman in your state who killed scores of people with a fertilizer bomb?

Don't answer that question---it might provoke one of those boring long-winded useless posts that inevitably concludes with your personal experiences discovering an oil well somewhere.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 3, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Ward.

You're the one talking in over-generalizing abstractions now. Was it the word boring you used...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 3, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
BASE,

what was the ppm of CO2 in the cretaceous. Thanks.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
You're the one talking in over-generalizing abstractions now. Was it the word boring you used...

WTF?

Listen " Marlowe" --or whatever you call yourself-- it wasn't I who dredged up some relatively obscure account of mafia corruption somewhere to over-generalize that into a poorly based and irrational non sequitur indictment of capitalism.
And because of my pointing this out I am suddenly Tim McVeigh with an "agenda"
Rich.
WBraun

climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
More living entities that any computer number can hold have seen and know God exists.

6 or seven stupid fools on an internet thread can't see him proves they are stupid.

There's no argument to be made.

It's now finalized and finished.

The deniers are just plain stupid period. :-)

This thread will now self destruct due to the truth being revealed.

Ya deniers can all go home now keep drooling ...... :-)
Messages 16901 - 16920 of total 22761 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews