Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 31, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
The Amplutihedron article is very lucid and interesting, especially (to me) the idea that a geometric construct was "discovered," as one might discover the Nile or a planet, and that the Amplutihedron is perhaps more fundamental than the stuff it hosts/describes, like space/time, thought, just maybe, to be illusions, or particular to a limited sense-data c#m human cognitive perspective.

Who knew? Getting close to Platonic "forms" or Jungian archetypes, me thinks.

JL
jstan

climber
Oct 31, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
This thread keeps forcing me out of my comfort zone, so disregard this post. Likely as not it is nonsense.

Feynman diagrams and his sum over all histories is a device. A device that gives one a new way to approach calculation assuming all interactions involve a particle exchange. (He said, if you can't calculate you don't know anything.) Calculations prior to Feynman suffered from singularities. Integrals just kept blowing up. That said if you used his device you could make quantum electrodynamic calculations (mind you with thousands of terms) that agreed with experiment to extraordinary precision.

The new authors, all with apparently high credentials, claim a new device that ( on the other hand) requires one to give up unitarity and all the usual dimensions in order to gain efficiency. Apparently, both a new space and a new statistic. Feynman said whatever works and works the best, will be used. The future of the new device is then apparent.

When it has been shown for a wide variety of physical phenomena that the new device works just as well but much faster, it will be used and work to apply it ever more broadly will be undertaken. A search for its failure is the only important issue. If a failure is not found then will come a major thrust to see exactly in what sense we may be abandoning our earlier fundamental concepts.

That will define the change in our understanding. There is a huge amount of work yet to be done.

There is an old saying in the trade. The theorist is generally the only person who believes his theory. The experimentalist is the only person who doubts his data. Anyway you look at it everyone loses their hair. Truly great games are like that.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 31, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
Good post on the physics, John S.


However, from quantumology.org we have a drift into the realms of JL, MikeL, and others: What it represents for us ordinary people is an important step forward in recognizing and validating our existence in many dimensions at once

Who knows where ideas like this will lead us?

Guess that's what this thread is all about . . .
WBraun

climber
Oct 31, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
There is a huge amount of work yet to be done.


Not really at all. :-)

Just revert back to being your original self is all it takes ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 1, 2013 - 01:30am PT
Here's a fun exchange...

(1) Diana Nyad (atheist) ala Oprah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hla3ibhUuCU

(2) Hemant Mehta (pop atheist response to Oprah)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7fmVF_HIcU

.....

An Appetite for Wonder...
Dawkins and Shermer. Just released.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0cRIrOOiA

Hope you all find time to catch this one. The interview starts around 17 min mark.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 1, 2013 - 10:19am PT
Jgill: ". . . recognizing and validating our existence in many dimensions at once"

The following is from a paper that I've drafted and am working on for my blog on management and organization. The label "integral consciousness" is one that others have used to point to a newly emerging structure of consciousness.

There are some new terms in the writing below; view them as pointers, not end-all, be-all definitions or concepts. I think you'll find your rational mind straining to understand them; my suggestion is to relax and be playful with them.
--


(from p. 14)

Other time forms beyond chronological abstractions are available through detachment in the integral structure of consciousness: in particular, timelessness. An aperspectival world has many temporal states, diaphaneity (transparency—the ability to see through words and concepts to what they point to), and truthfulness. (Franz Marc: “I begin to see through things--perceptual transparency.”)

http://www.oel-bild.de/Rehe-im-Walde~981.htm

Unconsciousness and archetypal symbols are acategorical as spaceless psyche. People of integral consciousness have an inner commission that points beyond oneself, one that requires devotion, unconditional trust, openness, and lucidity (see Sartre, Heidegger, Habermas). Integral consciousness, the apersonal, shows an ego that is not forgotten, but rather put on the side. Dualities and oppositions are rejected. True knowledge is gained from lived experiences rather from the intellect (Sartre). Work will not be a quantity to be allocated as another scarce resource and managed, but a quality liberated from time.

Integral consciousness is space-free and time-free, and its essence is transparency (diaphaneity). It sees the past, present, and future simultaneously and renders them whole ("presentiating"). The integral structure of consciousness understands reality as a never-ending, dynamic process of integration and presentiation--rather than static, integrated end results or conclusions. The objective emphasis of this structure of consciousness is conscious spirit, while its subjective emphasis is concretion—the immediate subjective experience without assessment, categorization, labeling, or elaboration. The integral’s efficient forms of manifestation are openness and spiritual truthfulness: "verition"--the world presentiated and imparted-in-truth. The deficient or immoderate form of this structure of consciousness is ascetic voidness or emptiness.
-----------------
WBraun

climber
Nov 1, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
The deficient or immoderate form of this structure of consciousness is ascetic voidness or emptiness.

What does this really mean according to you?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 1, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
What does this really mean according to you?

(It's the word "really" that makes me hesitate. Are you asking me how it shows up for me? Are you asking what an ascetic voidness REALLY is?)

What I'm trying to describe or point to is a summation of all past and current ways of perceiving. That's what makes it "integral." When that becomes evident to a person, then objects and frames of reference lose much of their power. They surely continue to be used or referenced, but they no longer are taken as concrete, serious, or in a particular place or time. This loss of power in categorizations, labels, and concepts can lead one into believing that everything is in fact non-existent, meaningless, without value, or made-up.

But even that way of looking is too heavy-handed. Again, the descriptions are just pointers, not definitions. An equally apt description would probably go in the opposite direction; all these shifts in consciousness lead to infinite meaning, total existence, absolute value, and are no longer constructible.

Either set of pointers is fairly useless to a rational, mental mindset that sees reality what philosophers have called naive realism.

On the other hand, what is ascetic voidness REALLY? It seems to be pristine awareness. There seems to be nothing but. (But what the heck do I know?)
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 1, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
From Making Philosophy Relevant

....Meanwhile continental philosophy has devolved into an elitist club of word-wranglers who are so wrapped up in their own postmodern and poststructural mumbo-jumbo of hermeneutics and semiotics that they, too, are unable to engage with the real world.

And both branches are so laden with jargon so as to be nigh unintelligible to any but devoted practitioners. The great danger with this – a danger that might also be threatening quantum physics today – is that in order to engage in the debate at all, one must be so immersed in the frame of reference, the jargon, and perspective of the day that it becomes virtually impossible to break free and offer any genuine alternatives.

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 1, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
^^^^^
FM: What do you know of postmodern thought? Other than broad criticisms (without detai), what in particular do you think is the specific error that postmodernism makes?

Dilettantes here tend to be good with cut and paste, but invariably they don't have an understanding what they're writing. If they did, then they would write for themselves. As a result, it's all just concepts and drama.
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 1, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
Good criticism contextualizes and informs. In the case I linked to, it also diagnoses an illness, in this case, elitism and subsequent irrelevancy. As for postmodernism, it meshed with my adolescent years but was easy to grow out of. Even Derrida thought, in hindsight, that he was full of shiht most of the time.

I just found it funny how you answered Werner's simple question; it made me remember the gas-bag literati of art criticism; full-on head scratchers , purposedly indecipherable to us filthy dillettantes:

the descriptions are just pointers, not definitions. An equally apt description would probably go in the opposite direction; all these shifts in consciousness lead to infinite meaning, total existence, absolute value, and are no longer constructible.

Them's a lotta words fer sayin' nuthin.....bro!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 1, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
JStan, have you ever read that Feynman book, QED?

He covers his path integral thoroughly, in a way that anyone can understand with a little effort. I HIGHLY recommend it to all here.

Most people think that science is without imagination. Nothing could be further from the truth. Discovery requires a very strong imagination, and a creative mind.

Regarding Ammon, has everyone watched how calm he is talking to his helmet cam? JL has already told us how he kept calm by zoning his mind in a way that he didn't sit there screaming at the top of his lungs.

I broke a leg one night in the valley, in the meadow in front of Curry Village, and didnt' make a peep. I had to hop on three limbs for a half mile, hiding my rig in a dumpster for later retrieval, kind of crawling, to get to the point where we were picked up at dawn. By then it hurt like a bitch. I felt no pain when it happened, even though it made a super loud cracking sound when the tibia broke.

Some of these qualities are shared by some or all of us. Honing them takes practice, but I've seen so many first jump students shut down on their first jump. They remember nothing. They are like a rag doll, and their senses were overloaded to the point that their hard drives locked up.

Certain people can handle these things. I've noticed it many times over the years. Walls, soloing at your limit, BASE, these are all shortcuts to get to that blissful state of full awareness that I think you all seek.

Back before sport climbing, the strongest minds were valued right up there with the strongest bodies. Unfortunately, we would sometimes try to prove it. Jumping El Cap on acid, for example.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 1, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
One of my all time favorite quotes. I have a very special place in my heart for what I call "broken people."

“The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. These people have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen.”

 Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Nov 1, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
So I had an interview with a zen master the other day. She asked me the question of " what is a man of great death? "

so i gave her a conceptual answer of "before thinking there is no great and no death"

She almost laughed me out of the room; she flabergastedly asked That is your answer?!!!? (like you have got to be kidding me) and I quickly remembered that conceptual answers typically don't apply with zen masters and I gave a non conceptual answer and she said not correct and I challenged that it was correct and she said yes it was correct but she was checking if I was confident in my answer.

She also said the first answer is true but not the correct answer to her question she wanted me to show her a man of great death.

this showing is like a physical proof that you really get the concept. If the question was what is a man of great off width climbing and I said Werner ! it would be the truth but not the correct answer i would have to go climb the off width. Conceptual understanding is of little help on off widths.

what this is getting at is concept V.S. action.

What is great love? who cares about the concept, show the world.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Nov 1, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
She is Bobby Rhodes. Moved to Berkeley from the east coast about 6 months ago.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 1, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#328543
MH2

climber
Nov 1, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
What is great love? who cares about the concept, show the world.


Give me a big enough kitten and a long enough string and I will.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Nov 1, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
Wow! learned something else: there are female Zen Masters.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 1, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
Bobby Rhodes is "Seong Hyang," from the Korean lineage.

Plenty of female Zen folk out there now, and hae been since Zen got traction here in the '70s. It never gt MUCH traction - too austere and boring for most folks and not enough emphasis on being "spiritual."

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 1, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
FM: Nothing specific or of your own, hmm?
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