Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 16841 - 16860 of total 23145 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 21, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Seems to regress infinitely begging the question who/what is the observer (witness) and who/what is the observed. If the mind is observing itself then how can it be anything but two minds and why isn't the observer mind just as susceptible to "monkey" stuff? It would seem that all thought is discursive of a kind even when it is non-thought. Who realizes enlightenment if there is no one there? If the witnessing one is no thing then witnessing itself is in the strictest sense "unrealized."

Respectfully, Seems like this is where it started. With one of the most contrived questions to date...

....Except for that last word?

With meditation on this question, and being honest; can't we adjourn to knowing that there is another voice speaking to the mind whith in the self?
MH2

climber
Sep 21, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
can't we adjourn to knowing that there is another voice speaking to the mind?


It's been known to happen.

Thanks to MikeL for bringing up Jed McKenna. That McKenna seems to exist in the material plane only in the form of words he has written. However, there is also Terence McKenna.

Terence McKenna, like some on this thread who advocate meditation, considers the ego to be a hindrance to enlightenment, realization, awareness, awakening, etc. Speculating about the early days of human development he wrote:

Wherever and whenever the ego function began to form, it was akin to a cancerous tumor or a blockage in the energy of the psyche. The use of psychedelic plants in a context of shamanic initiation dissolved - as it dissolves today - the knotted structure of the ego into undifferentiated feeling, what Eastern philosophy calls the Tao.


Under the influence of an hallucinogen McKenna heard a "divine informative voice."


Now, there is one sure way to rid yourself of ego, which McKenna also experienced:

I always thought death would come on the freeway in a few horrifying moments, so you'd have no time to sort it out. Having months and months to look at it and think about it and talk to people and hear what they have to say, it's a kind of blessing. It's certainly an opportunity to grow up and get a grip and sort it all out. Just being told by an unsmiling guy in a white coat that you're going to be dead in four months definitely turns on the lights. ... It makes life rich and poignant. When it first happened, and I got these diagnoses, I could see the light of eternity, a la William Blake, shining through every leaf. I mean, a bug walking across the ground moved me to tears.


I know what he's talking about, as do many others.



There was a time when meadow, grove, and stream,
The earth, and every common sight,
To me did seem
Apparell'd in celestial light,
The glory and the freshness of a dream.
.
.
.
.

Ode
Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood
William Wordsworth. 1770–1850
.
.
.
.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live,
Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears,
To me the meanest flower that blows can give
Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears.




BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 21, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
But as for one trying to respond to the most respectful JoGill.

But I am still curious about JL's awakening and the Christian born again . . . are they similar? Speak up Bible People! What do you think? I realize very few if any have had both experiences, but if you have had one and have thought about the other your words could be informative.

I do feel like I've experienced the dementia from both acts. Prolly not to the summit of The Masters. But enough to get away from the "I am" syndrome. (maybe from living life through my 7yro daughter, or from living life with the Holy Spirit). Since being "born again" I RARELY experience the "I" in the day. Instead, I experience always the "U" in the day. I no longer ask what "I" will say, but rather what "U" would have me to say...
Being Transcendent to "being born again" to me is forgiving "us" and being Obliged to seeking the Truth. Without the reprieve from God, I always Adjourned things as selfish.
It is one thing Truely, to be "outside" of the experience, looking in. But why?

This is why I went seekin for more than discursive and nondiscursive.

I have more to say about being Born Again, if you'll listen?

WBraun

climber
Sep 21, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
Now, there is one sure way to rid yourself of ego,

Impossible to do.

It's never ever been done period.

Ego is the individuality of the living entity.

Merging into the oneness is spiritual suicide and is sought after by those in poor fund of knowledge.

The mayavadi fools always desire and fall for this.

False ego is the problem. Falsely identifying oneself as the material body.

One should study the science of the soul .......
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 22, 2013 - 12:03am PT
I have more to say about being Born Again, if you'll listen?


Of course. Please continue.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 22, 2013 - 12:10am PT

Impossible to do.

SO TRUE!

But when listing; there is a voice Ask'in us, what's more important? Me or them.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 22, 2013 - 12:48am PT
For me, saying being Born Again.
Is the ability to allow the absolute despondence of everything I've ever known, to the ability to allow the words of the bible to transcend into the intermost depths of my beings understanding
of nature (the world), and my relationship with mankind. And to let go of my predescribed measure of the world. And allow a unseen entity to interject an authority towards mans innafirmaties. And then to be consoled to these ideas. And be confirmed through action.

In a nutshell.


Edit: what's more real than bowing down to a Master?
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 22, 2013 - 01:04am PT
Well put, BB. Thank you.

;>)
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 22, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
Bowing to a master? Nietzsche did say that Christianity was a kind of slave religion (I’m paraphrasing). Hitchens describes Christianity as a kind of North Korean style arrangement/ government.

Perhaps I am too full of myself but bowing to a master’s voice that I somehow hear in my mind has all the elements of a kind of pathology. How does one “know” the authenticity of their personal voices? It would seem God has spoken to so many with so many different voices and with such self sureness of the listener that we hardly know who to listen to. Perhaps it's safer to shut our mind's ears and just enjoy being.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 22, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Only One Life

By C.T. Studd




Two little lines I heard one day,

Traveling along life's busy way;

Bringing conviction to my heart,

And from my mind would not depart;

Only one life, 'twill soon be past,

Only what's done for Christ will last.




Only one life, yes only one,

Soon will its fleeting hours be done;

Then, in 'that day' my Lord to meet,

And stand before His Judgement seat;

Only one life,'twill soon be past,

Only what's done for Christ will last.




Only one life, the still small voice,

Gently pleads for a better choice

Bidding me selfish aims to leave,

And to God's holy will to cleave;

Only one life, 'twill soon be past,

Only what's done for Christ will last.




Only one life, a few brief years,

Each with its burdens, hopes, and fears;

Each with its clays I must fulfill,

living for self or in His will;

Only one life, 'twill soon be past,

Only what's done for Christ will last.




When this bright world would tempt me sore,

When Satan would a victory score;

When self would seek to have its way,

Then help me Lord with joy to say;

Only one life, 'twill soon be past,

Only what's done for Christ will last.




Give me Father, a purpose deep,

In joy or sorrow Thy word to keep;

Faithful and true what e'er the strife,

Pleasing Thee in my daily life;

Only one life, 'twill soon be past,

Only what's done for Christ will last.




Oh let my love with fervor burn,

And from the world now let me turn;

Living for Thee, and Thee alone,

Bringing Thee pleasure on Thy throne;

Only one life, 'twill soon be past,

Only what's done for Christ will last.




Only one life, yes only one,

Now let me say,"Thy will be done”;

And when at last I'll hear the call,

I know I'll say “twas worth it all”;

Only one life,'twill soon be past,

Only what's done for Christ will last.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 22, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
No, no. Please.
Please, please listen...

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 22, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
How does one “know” the authenticity of their personal voices?

Good question. Indeed, how does one know the authenticity of anything whatsoever?

It would seem God has spoken to so many with so many different voices and with such self sureness of the listener that we hardly know who to listen to.

Perhaps. If there were a God, what kind of God would he be? Would s/he be a dogmatic God with only one voice, with one message, with one point of view, at one time, in one culture, using one set of words, with one language?

As a teacher in university, there are many choices I have to make. What level do I talk to my students? To the upper third, to the middle third, or to the lower third? What thoughts do I pass on to them? Do I tell them about the most basic ideas or theories? Do I give them the intermediate level of content? Do I give them the big picture and hope that they can find some way to assimilate it all into a single notion? Do I teach them as experts, and tell them that everything that I teach them is a lie . . . that the ideas are just concepts, and that they must learn to see the world as ambiguous, uncertain, ill-structured, without perfect access to the data that they want, and that they'll most likely have to work with others who do not see the world as they do? Do I teach them formally, informally, or use on-the-job training methods (e.g., "action research")?

A good teacher says what students need to hear at that time, at that level, in that place.

A great teacher sees each situation as a learning experience and acts accordingly.

A great student is open-minded and knows how to listen to the slightest nuance and understand.

Many people think that great teaching happens due to great teachers. I think great teaching happens by virtue of great students.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 22, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
I think great teaching happens by virtue of great students

I agree. When that combination of teacher and student brings out the best in each.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 22, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
If there were a God would that entity have so many voices and so many different messages that he/she might set people at each other's throats in order that all believe the way of any one particular message?

Perhaps God should ask himself/herself why he/she makes so little sense.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 22, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
I think that Any man, Any where, at Any time chooses to direct his thoughts and emotions
toward the unseen entity in the sky. Be it, Jesus, God, or whatever one chooses to call Him.
God does hear everyone of His children's voices. From the Aborigines to th Americans.
It doesn't matter if you havnt ever heard the bible. But God has proclaimed that the bible is His word. And that He would send the greatest teacher to teach of His devine plan. Which He did.
For a man to quester God without knowledge from the bible, would use about the same language as a 1st grader. And will be held to the judgements of The Old Testament. Just as the Jews are. But for over 2k yrs now we have the teachings of the New Testament. And the teachings of the greatest teacher to ever walk the planet in Jesus. Through the teachings of Jesus we are able to understand how to approach God in an intimate way. And if we are good pupils. God will provide understanding of His word inorder to grant us knowledge and wisdom
soas to walk holy in His Holy Light. This is the crux to His intimacy. He is All Holy. We cannot
approach, or see His face while containing a blackened heart. The good news is today we have a mediator in Jesus Christ. The more we learn from Christs teachings, and put them to work. the holier we become.

The best students; have their eyes wide open, their ears wide open, their mind wide open, and their heart full of love!
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 22, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
It is fascinating to me that a man should know so intimately and surely the desires of God because another man told him such was the case.

Let's hope God only tells you to do good things!
WBraun

climber
Sep 22, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
because another man told him such was the case.

Never ever works like that.

God work directly thru his bonafide representatives.

They are unaltered transparent mediums.

They have a bonfide discipline succession (sampradaya) goes back to God himself.

That's one method how you can verify it.

There are checks.

Take Buddha for example he is a bonafide incarnation of God himself.

But he preached an atheistic version of the absolute truth to stop the Karmic reaction of those he was involved with.

Only God can cheat perfectly so that one advances and becomes successful.

Only fools run blind ....



BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 22, 2013 - 07:30pm PT

Some want to call it "blind faith". But faith without works is dead! When I do works or deeds directed by a convicted conscious. God rewards me, in many different ways..
Some would say words like, Superstitious, lucky, or Coincidental etc., I don't believe in any of those terms. I believe in awareness and destiny. When your watching through spiritual eyes you can see everything done is for a reason. And every minute trivial act through love is a gift from God. And when you acknowledge Him for the little things, His rewards are large.

ESPECIALLY when my conscious convicts me to not do something bad. And I don't.
Even moreso than doing something good. For if someone tells you Good Job! That is your reward. But do good in secret, without anyone knowing. And God will surely reward you!
In the only way for you to know it was from Him. INTIMACY!

OIME
Pepe Le Poseur

Social climber
Parts North
Sep 22, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
I don't need to debate the existence of my parents with anyone, or the existence of gravity, or any other patently obvious things in nature.

seems one only needs to debate the existence of non-existent things.

Always seemed pretty clear to me that, A). there was no "conscious" supreme being at the wheel or B). even if there was , he was a knucklehead and doesn't know how to drive

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 22, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
"God work directly thru his bonafide representatives."


Yes, God's "bonafide" representatives are happy to tell you they are.

Transparent? The expectation and definition of transparent is defined by a man! God and his expectations are defined by men who define and prove their own holiness by their own definition. What else? And why, because the desire for escape is stronger than reason and very often stronger than sanity.

Witness the zealots of love and absolute faith who decided it was their responsibility to slaughter dozens of people in a shopping mall in Kenya for the sake of their beloved deity.
Messages 16841 - 16860 of total 23145 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews