Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 16521 - 16540 of total 22350 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
sullly

Trad climber
Oct 6, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
^^^^^^^
I think, therefore I yam.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 6, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
Raglan looks dope.
+1

Goofy-footers paradise. But, crankin' backsides fer us regular footers. Either way, the place is indeed "dope", as is "Endless Boogie", a rather apropos band and tune for that 1st vid. "I'm hanging out with the low-life" ... i can definitely relate.

Miki Dora spent a few years in NZ at Ragland, bitd, until he got booted out of that country. being a long term Malibu & Rincon regular footer, he bitched about it being a left and eventually ended up at Jeffry's Bay via Southern France, etc! Da' Cat's life was the epitome of an 'endless boogie/summer'!

Thanx fer sharing, Marlow!

edit:
One of the Beach Boys perished similarly some time ago.

Dennis Wilson around '82/'83. I was living in LA at the time and it came as quite a shock. He was around 38 and the youngest BB. He was hanging out with a friend on his (friends) boat which was harbored in the Santa Monica / Venice Beach marina. He was skin diving off the boat and looking for whatever he could find of interest on the bottom and didn't come up.
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 7, 2013 - 12:40am PT
When you shut down the discursive functions and somehow quell the senses the emptiness that seems so astounding is probably just the diminished functioning of the brain, not some sort of cosmic or quantum undifferentiated flux.

Which explains why absolutely nothing useful ever came from thinking about "no-thing"... no great art, symphonies, no great words, insights, or theorems. Concentrate on doing nothing long enough and pretty soon you'll succeed.


WBraun

climber
Oct 7, 2013 - 12:45am PT
Which explains why absolutely nothing useful ever came from thinking about "no-thing"

Actually great art, symphonies, great words, insights, theorems all originated from "No-thing".

Boy are you ever stupid ......

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 7, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
One history of the zero

Early history: Angled wedges

"Zero was invented independently by the Babylonians, Mayans and Indians (although some researchers say the Indian number system was influenced by the Babylonians). The Babylonians got their number system from the Sumerians, the first people in the world to develop a counting system. Developed 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, the Sumerian system was positional — the value of a symbol depended on its position relative to other symbols. Robert Kaplan, author of "The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero," suggests that an ancestor to the placeholder zero may have been a pair of angled wedges used to represent an empty number column. However, Charles Seife, author of "Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea," disagrees that the wedges represented a placeholder.

The Sumerians’ system passed through the Akkadian Empire to the Babylonians around 300 B.C. There, scholars agree, a symbol appeared that was clearly a placeholder — a way to tell 10 from 100 or to signify that in the number 2,025, there is no number in the hundreds column. Initially, the Babylonians left an empty space in their cuneiform number system, but when that became confusing, they added a symbol — double angled wedges — to represent the empty column. However, they never developed the idea of zero as a number."

A second history of the zero

"The mathematical concept of zero emerged in India about one and a half thousand years ago, and this summer I travelled there to visit a temple where the oldest known zero symbols are written on an inside wall.
About five hours by train south of New Delhi is Gwalior, a city overlooked by an impressive fort."

"Only the Indians introduced a symbol, 0, and treated it as if it was a normal digit just like all the others from 1 to 9. Invention of the number zero was possibly the greatest conceptual leap in the history of mathematics. But why did the Indians make this leap and not China or Babylon? My trip to India, for a BBC radio documentary, was to investigate why this was the case.

India made another contribution to world culture as well as zero: the idea of nirvana, the transcendent state of "nothingness", when you are liberated from suffering and desires. In fact, the word used in philosophical texts to mean nothing, or the void, is "shunya", the same word later used to mean zero."

A Third history of the zero

Egypt

Ancient Egyptian numerals were base 10. They used hieroglyphs for the digits and were not positional. By 1740 BCE the Egyptians had a symbol for zero in accounting texts. The symbol nfr, meaning beautiful, was also used to indicate the base level in drawings of tombs and pyramids and distances were measured relative to the base line as being above or below this line

Mesopotamia

By the middle of the 2nd millennium BC, the Babylonian mathematics had a sophisticated sexagesimal positional numeral system. The lack of a positional value (or zero) was indicated by a space between sexagesimal numerals. By 300 BC, a punctuation symbol (two slanted wedges) was co-opted as a placeholder in the same Babylonian system. In a tablet unearthed at Kish (dating from about 700 BC), the scribe Bêl-bân-aplu wrote his zeros with three hooks, rather than two slanted wedges.

The Babylonian placeholder was not a true zero because it was not used alone. Nor was it used at the end of a number. Thus numbers like 2 and 120 (2×60), 3 and 180 (3×60), 4 and 240 (4×60), looked the same because the larger numbers lacked a final sexagesimal placeholder. Only context could differentiate them.

India

The concept of zero as a number and not merely a symbol for separation is attributed to India, where, by the 9th century AD, practical calculations were carried out using zero, which was treated like any other number, even in case of division. The Indian scholar Pingala (circa 5th–2nd century BC) used binary numbers in the form of short and long syllables (the latter equal in length to two short syllables), making it similar to Morse code. He and his contemporary Indian scholars used the Sanskrit word śūnya to refer to zero or void.

In 498 AD, Indian mathematician and astronomer Aryabhata stated that "sthānāt sthānaṁ daśaguņaṁ syāt" i.e. "from place to place each is ten times the preceding," which is the origin of the modern decimal-based place value notation.

The oldest known text to use a decimal place-value system, including a zero, is the Jain text from India entitled the Lokavibhâga, dated 458 AD, where shunya ("void" or "empty") was employed for this purpose. The first known use of special glyphs for the decimal digits that includes the indubitable appearance of a symbol for the digit zero, a small circle, appears on a stone inscription found at the Chaturbhuja Temple at Gwalior in India, dated 876 AD. There are many documents on copper plates, with the same small o in them, dated back as far as the sixth century AD, but their authenticity may be doubted.

Rules of Brahmagupta
The rules governing the use of zero appeared for the first time in Brahmagupta's book Brahmasputha Siddhanta (The Opening of the Universe), written in 628 AD. Here Brahmagupta considers not only zero, but negative numbers, and the algebraic rules for the elementary operations of arithmetic with such numbers. In some instances, his rules differ from the modern standard. Here are the rules of Brahmagupta:
 The sum of zero and a negative number is negative.
 The sum of zero and a positive number is positive.
 The sum of zero and zero is zero.
 The sum of a positive and a negative is their difference; or, if their absolute values are equal, zero.
 A positive or negative number when divided by zero is a fraction with the zero as denominator.
 Zero divided by a negative or positive number is either zero or is expressed as a fraction with zero as numerator and the finite quantity as denominator.
 Zero divided by zero is zero.

In saying zero divided by zero is zero, Brahmagupta differs from the modern position. Mathematicians normally do not assign a value to this, whereas computers and calculators sometimes assign NaN, which means "not a number." Moreover, non-zero positive or negative numbers when divided by zero are either assigned no value, or a value of unsigned infinity, positive infinity, or negative infinity."
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 7, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
The distinction between "What is Real" and "What This Is" as experienced by the meditative staff here is probably an illusion as well, another trick played by the mind. To meditate into the "no-thingness" zone takes you no closer to some sort of ultimate perception (or whatever one wishes to call it, displaying the limitations of the "discursive" mind)

When you shut down the discursive functions and somehow quell the senses the emptiness that seems so astounding is probably just the diminished functioning of the brain, not some sort of cosmic or quantum undifferentiated flux.

Just my humble opinion.

The discussion of Moby Dick, however, is first rate.

I feel much the same, John. Meditation is NOT a stupid endeavor. There is a lot of white lab coat literature that has proven that it is effective at some things.

I just don't worry too much if El Cap is there or not. I've spent a bunch of time on it, or enough to be certain that it exists.

As for good books, The Seven Pillars Of Wisdom has the most exquisite language that I've encountered in it. T.E. Lawrence was one of history's more curious characters.

Poor Werner. He is locked into dead dogma. There is no way out after you erect the limits.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 7, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
I see people tossing out the word "flux" a lot lately. You need to understand what the word means. Wiki has a cool page about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flux
MH2

climber
Oct 7, 2013 - 02:36pm PT



I Amoeba.
Am I?
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 7, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
The distinction between "What is Real" and "What This Is" as experienced by the meditative staff here is probably an illusion as well, another trick played by the mind. To meditate into the "no-thingness" zone takes you no closer to some sort of ultimate perception (or whatever one wishes to call it, displaying the limitations of the "discursive" mind)

When you shut down the discursive functions and somehow quell the senses the emptiness that seems so astounding is probably just the diminished functioning of the brain, not some sort of cosmic or quantum undifferentiated flux.

Just my humble opinion.

The discussion of Moby Dick, however, is first rate.

I feel much the same, John. Meditation is NOT a stupid endeavor. There is a lot of white lab coat literature that has proven that it is effective at some things.

I just don't worry too much if El Cap is there or not. I've spent a bunch of time on it, or enough to be certain that it exists.

As for good books, The Seven Pillars Of Wisdom has the most exquisite language that I've encountered in it. T.E. Lawrence was one of history's more curious characters.

Poor Werner. He is locked into dead dogma. There is no way out after you erect the limits.






These statements are the reason why if you are going to do a meditation practice seriously you need a good teacher. People have all kinds of ideas about what and why to meditate and naturally often assume that they can get something from it.

The mistake in that is "I" is going to try to get something (no-thing is something) and you are immediately on the ego pursuit path
of trying to get stuff to make you happy or relaxed or rich or what ever. trungpa called this "spiritual Materialism". A good teacher will recognize that you are making an effort in the wrong direction and try to redirect you towards a witnessing practice where you don't push away the bad feeling stuff or grasp at the good feeling stuff. If you make a strong effort with a good teacher you will eventually percieve the moment and with more work compassion emerges and it becomes much easier to function in a compassionate manner. The "special states" are not the goal; the peaceful co-existance with life is the goal. If you are lucky enough to live peacefully with yourself and others then you don't need to meditate.

In most Zen buddhist practices the teachers have to be approved by several teachers before they are approved to be a teacher.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 7, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
Um, yeah... and there's certainly no ego involved in any of that.

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 7, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
. . . great art, symphonies, great words, insights, theorems all originated from "No-thing".

You could say that all of that comes from a connection to the unconscious, which seems to be a no-thing, at least to the extent that you can't find it or grasp it. But, these are just words and pointers. I asked an earlier question that no one bit on: What is talent, and where does it come from? (Crickets . . . .)

Let's put it another way: Just Where DO great art, symphonies, words, and insights come from, anyway?? The brain?

Base104 and Jgill:

As for shutting down the chatter and getting in touch with the "no-thingness" that no can seem to express properly (i.e., to your satisfaction), you needn't jump to anything astounding, cosmic, or undifferentiated flux. It's not about any "ultimate perception." (How could it be if it doesn't fit within concepts?) You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Nothing's special. The problem, it seems to me, is that most everyone here demands / requires that whatever it is or is not, it must be grasped by the mind. As Werner has said so many times, the mind is just a tool. The mind is not you, and it's not a universal tool, either.

But, again, there's nothing special about this no-thingness anymore than there is anything special about the color red. Some of us have found no-thingness interesting because it can't be grasped. Art, too, is interesting. Climbing is interesting. Do you honestly think that either can be defined, described, limited, grasped?

At the end of the day, none of it really matters. Nothing really matters. Everyone is on their own path all heading to the same (er, . . . ) destination. Call it what you will. Doesn't matter.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 7, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
Psp speaks the bare truth here but in my experience on this thread no one will believe him. and instead will cling to their beliefs based on their own experiences - or lack thereof - and ideas "about" the subject.

John wrote: "When you shut down the discursive functions and somehow quell the senses the emptiness that seems so astounding is probably just the diminished functioning of the brain, not some sort of cosmic or quantum undifferentiated flux."

This benign evaluation underscores the perception that we all have per the work before we start it. That is, the brain is like a kind of cognitive muscle, and the only way to properly flex it is to think.

This is entirely incorrect and is vouchsafed by anyone who has done a silent retreat of more than two days. Thinking, per se, is how the discursive mind handles bits and pieces of physical reality, and seeks to see combinations, connections, laws, and so forth. Meditation is the way our mind encounters the whole, the all, the forest, as opposed to the trees. You do not "see" the forest or encounter the all by idling down the brain function to some diminished state. In fact your brain has never worked harder than when you phase out of the discursive because it will want to return to the discursive immediately because that process can go on ad infinitum with no conscious effort, entirely on auto pilot. Meditation, however, requires intense and constant conscious abiding with the process, accomplished through a hightened awareness and presence.

To our rational mind, anything but thinking is nothing, in dumbing down our process, is going oin vacation, is reverting to a vagative fu fu state. In fact exactly the opposite is true. Ask virtually anyone getting startd with meditation and they will complain that they simply can't stay aware that well for that long and invariably find themselves floating off on a thought cloud and are lost till they come too a few minutes later.

So in fact what you learn about your own process is to think and to only think (especially undirected thinking, or "thought wandering"), is to vastly underutilize your mind's potential and capacities. You want to ramp up your brain function and output, try and consciously step out of your discursive trance. It will take all that you have to do it for one minute at a time.

JL
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 7, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
You could say that all of that comes from a connection to the unconscious....

YOU could say it, but no psychologist would.

edit: but no sane psychologist would...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 7, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
Nobel Prize for Medicine awarded for work on cell transport mechanism

"The 2013 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine has been awarded to three scientists, all based in the United States, for working out how biological cells organise and transport the many molecules they need to function.

In the 1970s and 1980s, James E Rothman, Randy W Schekman and Thomas C Südhof worked on separate aspects of the mechanism by which molecules such as hormones, enzymes and neurotransmitters move around cells in small bubbles of fatty membrane called "vesicles". The three laureates discovered how these packages get to the right parts of the cell at the right times.

Announcing the award on Monday at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, the Nobel Assembly's citation read that the award was "for their discoveries of machinery regulating vesicle traffic, a major transport system in our cells"."

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/07/nobel-prize-medicine-cell-transport-vesicles
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 7, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
the peaceful co-existence with life is the goal. If you are lucky enough to live peacefully with yourself and others then you don't need to meditate

Good comment. I'll buy that.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 7, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
You could say that all of that comes from a connection to the unconscious....

YOU could say it, but no psychologist would.

edit: but no sane psychologist would...


There are no "sane" psychologists, and few psychologists would go so far as to say anyone's conscious process is not driven almost entirely by unconscious factors. Unless you watched your own process, probably for years, you'd never even realize that thinking as we speak of it is almost entirely an unconscious and mechanical process. the only thing we have a modicum of free choice over is where we direct our attention.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 7, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
. . . . the only thing we have a modicum of free choice over is where we direct our attention.

And even that is disputable. All anyone has to do is look closely for themselves at their own thoughts and decision making (but that would take a little, . . . er, "observation"). An EEG test has shown that "brains make decisions" before subjects "know" they have decided (by a few thousandths of a second).

Nothing but conundrums and paradoxes as far as they eye can see.


Fort Mental:

Although there has been an increasingly growing interest in creativity among psychologists, the field has exhibited a growing fragmentation. This does not bode well for the field. Indeed, it suggest a divergence, not a convergence. Things are not getting clearer; they are getting more confusing: e.g., the field is not coming to a more detailed understanding of creative processes, its antecedents, or its inhibitors (see, Hennessey & Amabile, Annual Review of Psychology, 2010, 569-598).

Would Erich Neumann count as a "sane psychologist?" (He was Jung's student.)

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Creative-Unconscious-Erich-Neumann/dp/0691017735



EDIT: One more time: where does creativity or talent come from? How can it be explained?

See Mary Watkins' book, "Invisible Guests."
MH2

climber
Oct 7, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
One more time: where does creativity or talent come from?


From here and there and everywhere.





How can it be explained?


That depends on what you mean by explained. Does Mary Watkins have anything to say about The Garden of the Plynck?




"But I don't do it often, you see," answered the Plynck, quietly. "Why—!" exclaimed Sara. "I thought you just said—" Not for worlds would she have seemed rude or impolite to the Plynck, but she was completely puzzled.

The Plynck looked very kind. "I said I make it a rule," she said, gently. "I didn't say—you explain it to her," she said suddenly to her Echo in the pool, who had been looking on with rather an amused expression.

The Echo fluffed out her deep blue plumes a little and took up the task. "What are rules for, my dear?" she began. "Why—to keep, I guess," ventured Sara, a little flustered. "Aren't they?"

The Echo glanced up at the Plynck with a twinkling smile. "Do you hear that?" she asked. "Bless the child! She says rules are made to keep!" She laughed to herself a little longer, then she turned to Sara more soberly. "As far as your country is concerned, my dear, you are doubtless right, and I suppose it's important for you to keep that fact in mind. But here it's very different. Our rules are made to break. Don't you hear the Plynck breaking them?"


http://www.physics.emory.edu/%7Eweeks/misc/PLYNCK.PDF
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 7, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
Credit: Ward Trotter

"Some say its this thing and some say its that thing...or so they say..."

"Any man can find Gold once, but a man who finds Gold time and time again...now that's what your highfalutin gents wanna call ...'talent' "
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 8, 2013 - 10:47am PT
Extreme caution is advised when holding the dire gaze of the Crystal S...
Extreme caution is advised when holding the dire gaze of the Crystal Skull
Credit: Largo

Never mind all this speculation and mamber jamber about meditation. Let's get us a Crystal Skull and pass it around the horn:

“Legend says the crystal skull was carved tens of thousands of years ago by an ancient Mesoamerican civilization. Alternatively, the skull may possibly owe its origins to the island of Atlantis. Some have claimed it is proof that extraterrestrials visited the Aztec sometime before the Spanish conquest. Spectacular healings and expanded psychic abilities are reported from people who have fondled the skull. Author Mordecai Enrique Shapiro-Lopez suspects that the Crystal Skull is a mineral computer which records energy and vibration occuring around it, and when prompted, can pictorially replay all events or images of the people who have come into contact with it (i.e. it contains the history of our world). Inexplicably, the Crystal Skull, whether in snow or sunlight, always maintains a temperature of exactly ninety-eight degrees. Owing to fulsome and cosmic forces in its disposition, viewers are warned to exercise extreme caution when holding the skull’s gaze, lest it cause immediate blindness, insanity, or feral behavior.”
Messages 16521 - 16540 of total 22350 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews