Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 16521 - 16540 of total 22729 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 28, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
Very impressive, MikeL. Some of the best on this thread.


;>)
pa

climber
Jul 28, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
MikeL,
thank you...once again.
jstan

climber
Jul 28, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
MikeL:

Because of your post above, I am going to stop saying what I have been saying about you.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 29, 2013 - 05:08am PT
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness. - Woody Allen
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 29, 2013 - 10:15am PT
Hey, Ward;

I hope you're not going through treatment right now.

M.

--------------

Thx, & cheers.

"I no doubt deserved my enemies, but I don't believe I deserved my friends."
(Walt Whitman)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2013 - 11:38am PT
I hope you're not going through treatment right now.

Oh no. Apparently I'm good .( knock on wood)
The closest I've been to a doctor recently is my climbing partner, who is a physician.

In fact we are going a- climbin' this Thurs. up at Holcomb Pinnacles near Big Bear Lake.
Beautiful locale. I have just hit on the idea of swimming in the lake, which we pass on the way out. High of 80 degrees up there now. 7500 elevation.
Everyone needs a good swimin' hole from time to time.

Holcomb



Big bear lake

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 29, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
It is Beginning! II
Mathew 28, John 20

Pastor Greg Laurie says we can access God's power to overcome the temptations in our lives. He says it's the same power that raised Christ from the dead. Listen for seven important things we need to know about the Resurrection.

http://www.harvest.org/radio/listen/2013-07-29.html?autoplay=1

http://www.harvest.org/pdf/gregs-notes-a-new-beginning-teaching-outlines_23/it-is-beginning-_1654.pdf

...why you need the grace of our Lord simply put!
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 30, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=neuroscientists-dalai-lama-swap-insights-meditation

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
From introspection, we are all familiar with the mental clutter, the chatter that makes up our daily life. It is a rapid fire of free associations, of jumping from one image, speech fragment or memory to the next. Late-night lucubrations are particularly prone to such erratic zigzagging. Focusing on a single line of argument or thought requires deliberate, laborious and conscious effort from which we flee. We prefer to be distracted by external stimuli, conversations, radio, television or newspapers. Desperate not to be left alone within our mind, to avoid having to think, we turn to our constant electronic companions to check for incoming messages.

From Cintune's link above: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=neuroscientists-dalai-lama-swap-insights-meditation

This is an essentially negative appraisal of that day to day thinking we all engage in.
The author makes no attempt to separate garden-variety frenetic distraction from ordinary thinking and minute to minute consciousness and perception.

The first part in the last line in the above quote is pretty much the unenlightened boilerplate blurb on the matter, and should be familiar to readers of this thread.

Up thread quite a ways I included several posts in which I linked the nature, pace, and rhythm of ordinary mental activity to the mandates of biological survival in a harsh and uncompromising world of tooth and claw.
I emphasized the utter immediate futility and ineffectiveness of navel gazing as a means to either procure food , appraise the ever-changing landscape ,or as a defense against bloodthirsty predators.

Moreover, I have recently considered the hypothetical possibility, as yet unproven , that those forms of experience commonly referred to here as non- discursive -- actually may even be subliminally and psychologically erosive of ordinary consciousness and the clear survival advantage that it confers.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
Moreover, I have recently considered the hypothetical possibility, as yet unproven , that those forms of experience commonly referred to here as non- discursive -- actually may even be subliminally and psychologically erosive of ordinary consciousness and the clear survival advantage that it confers.


Perhaps you could let us know what you mean by "ordinary consciousness," being as speccific as you can per focus, awareness, attention, and thought management. As is, your ideas are couched in such vague language it's hard for me to understand what you are saying. Or, it sounds like you are suggesting that if we are faced with a tough and immediate threat on, say a run-out climb, that non-discursive expeditions can "erode" our ability to respond in kind.

I guess I'm most curious to learn what actual experiences you have had that would lead you to the above conclusions.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
This isn't the first time I've wished that David Attenborough would overdub narration on this thread.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
Perhaps you could let us know what you mean by "ordinary consciousness,"

I'll let the author of the above cited article summarize ordinary consciousness :

Desperate not to be left alone within our mind, to avoid having to think,

You know, the kind of criticism of discursive thinking that you yourself heartily engage in from time to time. Despite its haunting obscurity, I'm sure you already know what I'm referring to.

Or, it sounds like you are suggesting that if we are faced with a tough and immediate threat on, say a run-out climb, that non-discursive expeditions can "erode" our ability to respond in kind.

If the mind starts to track anything that is not relevant to the task at hand ,at that given moment, then yes, any given mode of thought that does not adapt to the ever -changing field of options , namely , the rapid on-going flood of discrete objective observation, thought, reaction , evaluation, rationality,and forethought .
If an individual routinely conditions his mind to ignore the flood of discrete evaluations ,then at some time , eventually , and perhaps ever so gradually, his/her brain will become subtly less adept and proficient at evaluating the conditions that are paced and timed to be synchronous with external reality- whether that external reality is perceived as threatening or not.

I guess I'm most curious to learn what actual experiences you have had that would lead you to the above conclusions.

This is like asking Nietzsche what personal experiences led him to his famous conclusion that " God is dead "

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 30, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Well.... growing up with a Lutheran minister for a father, witnessing the Franco-Prussian war up close and awful, and finally, his chronic inability to get laid all come to mind....
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
with a Lutheran minister for a father

Cintune:
The greatest product of the Lutheran Church in America:
Almost near perfection.




WBraun

climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
The gross materialists and atheists are all stuck in the lower chakras.

No wonder they're so bewildered and can never see God.

They operate down there in the 2 lower chakras.

Their mind and consciousness are fixed down there too.

It can't be done down there ......
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 30, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
Perhaps you could let us know what you mean by "ordinary consciousness,"

I'll let the author of the above cited article summarize ordinary consciousness :


Ward, if you're going to make vague and sweeping pronouncements - to the effect that you actually believe that non-discursive exercises may endanger our ability to stay alive in a pinch or crisis - then you are expected to explain how you came to those conclusions, in thne most tangible way you possibly can. Sluffing the task of to someone else who never got into these kinds of particulars, to say nothing of the fantastic claims you make, does not earn a sober consideration.

My sense of this is that you have no idea whatsoever how "ordinary consciousnes" actually occurs in your own experience, in terms of the basic components of focus, thought generation and direction, instinctual responses, attention, and so forth.

In fact the article cited and in my own experience, the exact opposite occurs in the real world - that is, if you always have the mind clenched in thought, it will eventually fatigue and will shut itself down. Given that the brain can be looked at, in many ways, as a kind of cognitive muscle, you are basically suggesting that the best way to exercise the brain is not through managible repetitions, but rather it's best to never put the barbell down and to keep pumping out sets till we die - lest we die from lack or preparedness.

Of course no muscle and no brain can ever actually respond to this recipe for total breakdown. Startinig with recess when we were young, to the few minutes of relaxation most of us take throughout the day to refresh and reboot ourselves, we all intuitively know that pressing on with no break is a sure way to burn ourselves out. The harder you think, or exercise, the more crucial becomes our need to rest. No down time is a good way to bring yourself down in a heap.

Enough said.

JL
WBraun

climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
In the 2 lower chakras they are so agitated down there they can never sit still long enough to see anything.

Thus they fall into the perpetual ocean of nescience and remain there .......
WBraun

climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
Thus in the 2 lower chakras they are so agitated they remain anchored in their gross physical vehicles.

They never even realize there are subtle vehicles that can be used to travel in .....
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 08:09pm PT



Jul 30, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
Thus in the 2 lower chakras they are so agitated they remain anchored in their gross physical vehicles.



Yeah but admit it ...we have better bowel movements, because of all that agitation.
You're just jealous.

BTW all you higher chalkra types can avoid the curse of your enlightened greatness by simply dissolving 2 teaspoons of Vitamin C powder in a glass of water, with a half teaspoon of baking soda, drink when the fizzing stops about 1/2 hour before breakfast . Be near a toilet for the next hour.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 30, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
I have a hard time sitting still.

That means I get another trip round the wheel? Gotta admit, this one's been a TRIP!

DMT
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