Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
oriented to education

MikeL:
It's hard for me to take the predicament illustrated by Zabala as being pertinent to anywhere but academia. The good old days when competing philosophical schools waged robust battles behind ivy -lined lecture halls. To the putative Victor went the spoils: western civilization!!
A quick visit to a few online philosophy sites, and yes, there may be a clear preponderance of analytical philosophizing and scientism from time to time, this reflects the times we live in and should be expected.
Take a quick gander at the forum line-up on this philosophy site that I am a member of:

http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/

Other types of philosophy , other than those dominated by modern science ,are doing quite well.

The site in the link above is somehow referred to as a "club"-- probably includes a special secret handshake- - something Largo might be interested in.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 26, 2013 - 03:10pm PT

The site in the link above is somehow referred to as a "club"-- probably includes a special secret handshake- - something Largo might be interested in.


I want one of those funky Fez lids and some kind of signet as well. Then we can really get after it!

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
This ought to look good with the Nehru jacket
The little face will have to do for a signet . At least for now.

Credit: Ward Trotter


Here's my signet:

Credit: Ward Trotter

The motto at top is always to be spoken in a WC Fields voice.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 26, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
Fourtis non Feerocks, my little chickadee.

Ironic, but if we only knew that Largoism, from its obscure and rocky start on an obscure and rocky forum, would eventually become the world religion of the 23rd century.

Stranger things have happened.




Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 26, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
Largoism, from its obscure and rocky start on an obscure and rocky forum, would eventually become the world religion of the 23rd century.


I don't have especially high hopes for my new religion seeminng that the doctrine is based on no-thing at all, the Trinity is swapped out for emptiness, there are no statistical representations of the terrain, feelings/thoughts/sensations et al are considered just ships passing in the night, no High Lama, and the whole blooming thing, God included, is professed to be ungraspible (by the discursive mind).

But I still like the fez, the secret handshake, the signet, and the very special robes, like Dracula maybe.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 26, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
It's hard for me to take the predicament illustrated by Zabala as being pertinent to anywhere but academia. The good old days when competing philosophical schools waged robust battles behind ivy -lined lecture halls.

I'm curious to know what field you are (or have been) in. Where is there not controversy? Where has anyone gotten to the bottom of anything?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 26, 2013 - 08:53pm PT

The other way to get a wide view is to disidentify with the content (QUALIA) and detach, including detaching from the imaginary "viewer" itself.

I think this could be dangerous. As a Christian living on earth, we are taught to come to terms
with all qualia. The good and the bad, the positive and the negative. The "ying and yang" so to speak. To be thankful, not only for the good, but also the bad. Embrace the bad for it is good for us! To learn from.. In Paul's last days of writing, he finally thanked God for "the thorn in his side" instead of cursing Him for it! Paul said that it spurred him on to rebel against evil, and to continue the good fight.

Meditation shouldn't be an escape from some "thing". It should be a face to face duel between the mind and the soul. Quietly controlled. Isn't that what Buddha taught?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 26, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
Ward,

My thought above is perhaps cryptic.

All fields of study in university are filled with tempests-in-a-teapot controversies. In and of themselves, they are trivial and irrelevant to anyone outside the departments and colleges in which they occur. However, in time, those controversies have a tendency to work their ways into everyday practices and regular people's lives down the road. Philosophy is nothing special in that regard.

Additionally, I saw a correspondence between (i) what Zambala was talking about (analytical views that tend to favor naive realism, objectivism, materialism, corporatism, instrumentalism, and careerism *versus* timeless issues and personal questions that relate to the human condition and Being), and (ii) what the parties are discussing here on this thread. Zambala was claiming that scientism and the analytical approach (above) had hegemonically and politically crowded out other views that focused on Being, arguing that a focus on Being is an illegitimate and useless topic of discussion in our contemporary age of analytical mental-rationalism. An interest in Being is becoming impossible to talk about, and apparently silly. (Perhaps I'm the only one who sees the parallelism.)

Your experience of being a member on an on-line philosophy forum notwithstanding, 25 years in academia has shown me that the dominance Zambala is talking about is real, pervasive, and deep throughout the academia--especially in this country, and especially in the professions. For the young elite (college-educated) in this country, what gets taught is what shows up.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 27, 2013 - 12:45am PT
Wow,, you got ur fastball down Mikel

Course im jus jestering

Seriously im in awe how this thread keeps getting butter. (I mean better!)
Thanks be given to all cOntributers
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 27, 2013 - 08:05am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#313077

I like the answers first, then the questions!
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 27, 2013 - 09:41am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Isn't that what Spyder's comic strip suggested?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 27, 2013 - 10:03am PT
Meditation shouldn't be an escape from some "thing". It should be a face to face duel between the mind and the soul. Quietly controlled. Isn't that what Buddha taught?


Not exactly.

I cannot overstate this: The biggest barrier to understanding any of the subjective stuff mentioned on this thread is that Maike, Jan and I are approaching the issue from an experiential angle FIRST. That is, you do the pracice, for many years, and later you search for words that approximate the terrain in a symbolic way. The other method, if you can call it one, is to try and reckon the terrain BEFORE you have the experiential quotient. That task is basically impossible - we can easily see why. And so you end up with people believing that "detaching" is an attempt to "escape" from something. Think of detaching here in the psychological way that kids individuate away from their parents. They break enmeshment and start to develop no longer fused to any particular person, place of thing.

Put diferently, the motto is to movie neither toward nor away from anything, developing an MO where you have no preference, so when the untoward happens, you can hang in the pocket without dashing off. Like everything else, no one does this perfectly, but being willing to try and live this way goes a long ways in doing so.

I hope to get some time to look over Mike's references this weekend.

JL
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 27, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
. . . arguing that a focus on Being is an illegitimate and useless topic of discussion in our contemporary age of analytical mental-rationalism. An interest in Being is becoming impossible to talk about, and apparently silly

I am in complete agreement with this. A discursive approach to "being" is absurd. One might as well be counting those angels on the head of a pin.

As for Base's comments about risk, over fifty years ago when I was working on the Thimble with a young airman spotting me, an older couple parked nearby, and the woman asked the husband, "what are they doing?" His reply, "They're teenagers out looking for a thrill."


;>)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 27, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
BASE:

If ever you can stay right in the pocket with the tsunami of experience, and the right-now of it all, and at the same time detach from it completely, where, exactly, do you find yourself?

Short answer (per my experience): the so-called "pure land," the unborn, the no-thing. This is our fundamental nature. Empty. Nothing. As Mike was saying, you can't get to the bottom of this (or anythng else) because there is no "this" there. All things continuously issue from not a goddam thing at all. Nothing.

JL
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 27, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
All things continuously issue from not a goddam thing at all. Nothing



0 = ∞


;>(
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 27, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
The term "experience" that a yogi might use refers to something different than your mother's use of the word "experience" when she talked about what it was like having a baby (a very intense event, I imagine).

I don't think spiritual "experience" is exactly the right word. No word really is. ("Oh, God, . . . there he goes again.")

Experience, as it is usually used, refers to something that people can describe and can think about. Walking on the wrong side of town and getting held up at gun point is an experience that people can describe and think about. So is having a baby, or climbing a mountain, or doing anything in the world. So is having a dream, or having an imaginary conversation with Karl Marx, or being afraid of the bogeyman in the interior world we call our minds.

Without interpretations or sensory inputs, what is pure subjectivity, noticing noticing, being aware of awareness, pristine awareness without elaboration? Not heightened senses, not intense experiences--just experience, just the awareness of equal phenomena that are non-repeating displays of infinitely creative and energetic mind. Like watching a movie without any meaning showing up. Just observing reality, the lila, a play put on by actors who are acting out their roles for their own amusement.

You, on the other hand, are neutral, yet completely involved beyond any sense of control, you being you, not being able to help yourself being you. Sitting in the allegory of the cave, watching the display, aware that it's just a play being put on by mind. Just pixels.

"Experience?" Hmmm, not quite. More like infinitely creative, spontaneous, unified, empty subjectivity.

THAT experience. Just experience as experience. No attachment, no aversions, no obscurations, nothing that blocks the view of pure subjectivity. No observer, nothing observed, just observation.

A little tough to get it into words. Impossible, really.


The other experience--the kind that everyone talks about in almost every instance--is a prime example of a mythological structure of consciousness. (Myth is the basis and expression for religion.) Our current era of consciousness is the mental-rational structure of consciousness. When people are making or analyzing scientific models, that's the typical indication of mental-rational representation, conceptualization, and manipulation.

"Experience collectors" (people who seek out "fateful action" situations) are operating primarily in a mythological consciousness, where stories and images are expressing consciousness. (If we were completely mental-rational analytical conceptual thinkers, there would be no need for stories or to refer to experiences.)

None of us are living completely in one structure of consciousness or another. We live in all of them simultaneously. We live in our instincts, in our emotions, in our stories and our experiences, and in our mental-rational conceptualizations. Striking out at myth or emotions or instincts or even conceptualizations is silly and false, when all of us are engaged in all of them regularly.

If there is a new structure of consciousness that's emerging these days, it's a recognition of them all equally and simultaneously.

I think what Largo has been attempting to point to (he and I haven't really talked much about it though) is what lies at the origin of all of those structures of consciousness. Below all consciousness is awareness, a pristine awareness, which is all there really is anyway. Those other structures of consciousness (yes, many just projections) I just discussed above are veils (even though they serve a process of unfoldment of Being).
MH2

climber
Jul 27, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
Let's get down to cases, here, which are all there really is, anyway.


http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/241532
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 28, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
For one thing, you should do it in real life just to know what it is like.

Here's the rubric: real life. Where is it? Which is it? What should I make of it?

I rouse this morning at 5:11 am to find the cat sleeping on my chest. I open my eyes and feel the early morning illuminate the trees from gray to green. My wife snores gently, and the room is quiet as an empty church. Is this real life?

I feel a bullet slip through between tibia and fibia on Feburary 3, 1968 in a little village outside of Bien Hoa. This after another bulletl disarmed me and got me hiding in a haystack. My 19-year life flashes before my eyes, and it's way too short. Everything is deathly quiet. I'm sure I'll die. Everything is crystal clear. Is this real life?

I have a couple beers after a long run, and the air around me is palpable. Friends talk, but I hardly hear them. Motes of dust freeze in time. Is this real life?

A student challenges me directly in the hallway for being a racial bigot. I failed her. At first I am stunned. Then I get Really Angry at her and recount the data and the evaluation. Is this real life?

A few weeks after we've started a new business, hired eight people, and put everything we own and our parents' net value on the line, my wife walks in and tells me she wants a divorce. I feel no ground under my feet. I'm dizzy from the exposure. Is this real life?

The radiation and chemo is making me into a zombie. I don't want to talk to anyone, I can only watch the food channel, and I look forward to the next round of percocets and medical marijuana. I feel seasick 24X7 for 8 weeks. I'm choking on my own thick saliva. I'm not caring about anything anymore. I can see how people could just let go of living. Is this real life?

I look at my hands right now, and they look foreign to me. What am I doing? Why am I spending the time to write? What does any of this matter to anyone? Is this real life?

My wife just walked by, stopped here at the table, bent over and said, "give me a kiss." I said, "how come?" She says nothing, and just kisses me. (How cool is that?) Is this real life?

Real life is happening all the time. It comes in different qualities, intensities, and with different meanings. It's real. You can't turn any of it off. You can't get outside of any of it. Not even with suicide, I suspect. It's the just the dimensions of it that shifts. Intensity? Well, that depends how much you're paying attention to it. In its most quiet and still moment, it is indescribable, ungraspable, undecipherable, indeterminate, open, spontaneous, and somehow singular. I don't get any of it. It's becoming a complete mystery to me. I'm becoming detached, yet I find I REALLY like people more and more, not matter how silly or jerky they are. Is this real life?


Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 28, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
MikeL:

Your recent posts have been kick- ass, my friend.

I can only watch the food channel

Me too.
My favorite all-time chef is Jacque Pepin.
MH2

climber
Jul 28, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Is this real life?


Only if it gets on film or TV. Promising material, though.
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