Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 16501 - 16520 of total 23163 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
WBraun

climber
Oct 5, 2013 - 10:23am PT
Poseur says -- "-right up till you die "

Nobody dies.

Greatest illusion period is you think the living entity dies ......
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 5, 2013 - 10:32am PT
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 5, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
Sullly, I'm just blathering on. Trivial tidbits that mean almost nothing.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 5, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
MikeL and Sully:
It's been quite some time since reading Moby Dick. The other night I downloaded a free eCopy at Kindle Amazon. I shall report back my epochal reread (to span 4-5 years) and then the issue will be duly resolved. LOL

A few years ago I read this very interesting,excellent, and hard-to-put-down book:

Credit: Ward Trotter

This Smithsonian article details aspects of the true hair-raising tale and Melville's role in his subsequent adaption of same:

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/history/2013/03/the-true-life-horror-that-inspired-moby-dick/

Of course none of this in no way deconstructs Melville's allegorical forays. He had a popular tale to tell, to an essentially romantic and religiously obsessed Victorian audience .

In this particular respect I have always considered Moby Dick to fit aptly into the same category as Robinson Crusoe --- another adapted true life story that had been given the typical 18th and 19th century romantic treatment by a very talented and capable writer.

During this period the only perennially notable authors who wrote masterfully of their actual experiences on the distant high seas were, Dana Two Years Before the Mast and Darwin The Voyage of the Beagle

Of course none of this precludes the fact that Moby Dick is high literature and a tale worthy of continuing appreciation.
It has grandly and deservedly worked itself into the American tradition, and spirit--- hence it's designation as the great American novel, the original American epic.
And yet, Moby Dick belongs to the ages, and to the world.


jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 5, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
Great link, Ward. Thanks
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 5, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
Ditto, Jgill. Interesting read, Ward. And Dana's book is a real classic. Reminds one that there are many other dangerous callings and pursuits that are just as dangerous as climbing. My best friend lived in Dana Point on his boat until he apparently slipped late one night and they found him floating just outside his slip. He tutored me in Dana's book.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 5, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
My best friend lived in Dana Point on his boat until he apparently slipped late one night and they found him floating just outside his slip. He tutored me in Dana's book.

Condolences.
Apparently this is quite a common accident at marinas , especially in SoCal, for whatever reason.
One of the Beach Boys perished similarly quite some time ago.

MH2

climber
Oct 5, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
"Ahab's full lunacy subsided not, but deepeningly contracted; like the unabated Hudson, when that noble Northman flows narrowly, but unfathomably through the Highland gorge."

Moby Dick
Herman Melville

A passage that caught my attention after having canoed the upper Hudson (north of Albany) trying to keep clear of holes the size of buses.




"The minced blubber strips are called bibles - because they have so many leaves."

A Dead Whale or a Stove Boat
Robert Cushman Murphy




The story of Jonah and other Biblical themes figure in Moby Dick. In Jonah: A Veggietales Movie there is a Moby Blaster arcade-style game in an early scene. And quite a few Biblical references. I like the way the movie tries to teach the difference between compassion and mercy but in some ways it is harder to follow than Moby Dick.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 5, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
"Vengeance on a dumb brute!" cried Starbuck, "that simply smote thee from blindest instinct! Madness! To be enraged with a dumb thing, Captain Ahab, seems blasphemous."

"Hark ye yet again – the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event – in the living act, the undoubted deed – there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there’s naught beyond. But ’tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I’d strike the sun if it insulted me."


Both parts of this dialogue contain some of the most important keys to unlocking Ahab's revenge that animates the narrative. Starbuck claims that trying to take revenge on a simple animal, which isn’t capable of hatred or cruelty, is not just stupid – it’s sinful. In response, Ahab claims that the entire world has an allegorical or neo-Platonic aspect: all things represent other things (archetypes) and everything happens for a purpose. Much of the tension in the novel relates to this fundamental difference in interpretation: Starbuck sees the natural world as simply there, blindly doing its thing, and Ahab sees it as the tangible representation of "some unknown but still reasoning thing." At bottom, some maintain, the issue is whether or not Moby Dick attacked Ahab with "malice aforethought."
sullly

Trad climber
Oct 6, 2013 - 10:45am PT
Thanks for this one line, Largo:

"Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I’d strike the sun if it insulted me."

Awesome!

Ward, I'll revisit the novel too when I have more time over the Holidays.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 6, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
If I trust my friends here who say we can be sure of consensus reality, then I wonder: how can madness, illusion, major disagreements, or even little tiny minor ones appear to exist at the same time in the same space?

How it can be both ways? (i) The senses and instruments don't lie--WYSIWTI (what you see is what there is). (ii) Religious, artistic, feeling-centered people are deluded. Even the very apparent "fact" that there CAN be two different (or maybe an infinite) ways presents a confusing paradox. How can anything be two different ways?

Q: How much does the earth weigh?
A: Not one single ounce. It's floating in space.

A closer look at "things" is what can help to "understand" the question of how any thing can BE two different ways. (Forget answers; focus on the questions.) The notion of being two different ways is a trick, a sleight of mind, the illusion of itself.

There are no "things," not as we conceive them. It's what Buddhists refer to as the Tetralema: (i) not this AND that, (ii) not this OR that, (iii) neither not this NOR not not-that. "Making" things is always what's happening--even not-that--as making or not making--are "neither nor" as well. (In other words, it's ALL the very same thing; there are no differences; it only looks that way.)

We make things up, and the things we make up have real impacts on us because we have made them up. "Things" manifest in front of us display-like, and their very substance is reliant upon the other things we make up (e.g., instruments, measurements, theories, concepts). Consciousness is immensely energetic and creative. (It's all very slippery.)

"What's real?" appears to be part of the "sleight of mind" that's getting in the way of seeing What This Is. "What's real?" is an interesting diversion only as long as the investigation is kept within a set of self-imposed boundaries (materially, spiritually, artistically, scientifically, etc.). Without boundaries . . . IT Is . . . like space, infinite potentiality, empty. One could say that without the diversion, IT would be dull--but IT's WOW / WHOA instead.

Of course, there is another understanding available about all of this.

We are all absolutely crazy--every single one of us.

Yippee!

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/crazy.html
MH2

climber
Oct 6, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
We are all absolutely crazy


it only looks that way
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 6, 2013 - 12:45pm PT

BBC 3 Bullsh!t detectors exposes three mediums



Look at the way the detector dresses... I guess it gives believer credibility in the eyes of the mediums...
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 6, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Marlow, did you ever visit that Zen center right down the road from your barn?

What would it take to make you go there? Put down those old jazz LPs and pay a visit. They speak Norge there, I hear.

JL

Yoz
Yoz
Credit: Largo

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 6, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Largo

I've told ye, there was nothing... the Zen something at Grönland Norge was nothing... in accordance with the deep zen saying "everything is nothing" - and I take that as an indication that the Wall Mart buddha may - in some instances - like the rest of us - be right... - something could be nothing... ;o) Or is that just my illusion? Is the zen Grönland Norge real?

What does the WM buddha say?


Surfin' Raglan NZ
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 6, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
http://cloud-path.tumblr.com/schedule

This one is still going, Marlow. They're expecting you.

JL
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 6, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
The distinction between "What is Real" and "What This Is" as experienced by the meditative staff here is probably an illusion as well, another trick played by the mind. To meditate into the "no-thingness" zone takes you no closer to some sort of ultimate perception (or whatever one wishes to call it, displaying the limitations of the "discursive" mind)

When you shut down the discursive functions and somehow quell the senses the emptiness that seems so astounding is probably just the diminished functioning of the brain, not some sort of cosmic or quantum undifferentiated flux.

Just my humble opinion.

The discussion of Moby Dick, however, is first rate.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 6, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Raglan looks dope. Whew. Wish I surfed.

Full screen!



Ah, . . . the wonders of the physical world!

M.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Oct 6, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
Blessed be the name!

All praise to Him who reigns above
In majesty supreme,
Who gave His Son for man to die,
That He might man redeem!

Blessed be the name! Blessed be the name!
Blessed be the name of the Lord!
Blessed be the name! Blessed be the name!
Blessed be the name of the Lord!

His name above all names shall stand,
Exalted more and more,
At God the Father’s own right hand,
Where angel hosts adore.

Blessed be the name! Blessed be the name!
Blessed be the name of the Lord!
Blessed be the name! Blessed be the name!
Blessed be the name of the Lord!

Redeemer, Savior, friend of man
Once ruined by the fall,
Thou hast devised salvation’s plan,
For Thou hast died for all.

Blessed be the name! Blessed be the name!
Blessed be the name of the Lord!
Blessed be the name! Blessed be the name!
Blessed be the name of the Lord!

His name shall be the Counselor,
The mighty Prince of Peace,
Of all earth’s kingdoms conqueror,
Whose reign shall never cease.

Blessed be the name! Blessed be the name!
Blessed be the name of the Lord!
Blessed be the name! Blessed be the name!
Blessed be the name of the Lord!


Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
MH2

climber
Oct 6, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
The name of the Lord?


go-B

Did you not recently remind some of us and tell others of us that when Moses asked God's name, in Exodus 3:14, God answered, more or less, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh". The Hebrew-to-English is "I Will Be What I Will Be." but in most English Bibles the phrase is rendered, I Am That I Am." Or as you wrote, "I AM WHO I AM."

The Hebrew "ehyeh" could mean, "I will be" or "I AM."

So Who is Pop-ehyeh?



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