Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MH2

climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
When one sees sorrow and suffering, he or she should simply be with it.


You can be with it and treat it. Would you not check the blood pressure of a pregnant woman? If the blood pressure was high, would you not investigate the possibility of eclampsia? If it seemed that the woman was at risk for eclampsia, would you not treat with magnesium sulphate?

In addition to medical interventions, medical professionals should always treat a patient as a whole person and usually as a person with family. Like a med school professor told the class, "You will never have a pair of kidneys walk into your office."

What is admirable or desirable in not directly helping a person? Say a person with a broken bone?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
the Republican party and the American religious-military-oil-establishment...

That's precisely the Euro-tin-foil -hat wearing propaganda I' m talking about.
Currently the international money interests want Socialists and Liberals in power in the West for these reasons:

A) They are driven by politically radicalized baby boomers at the height of their senior position in society. This generation believes in big activist socialist government with themselves in charge.
B) Large centralized-planning governments in the West make their increasingly slavish populations overly dependent on massive social spending programs.(military included)
c) Those social spending programs are driving leading governments like the US into tremendous debt .
D) The more in debt these economies become the further the controlling power shifts to the dudes holding the Loan notes--- a process that renders elected representatives and the sycophant media increasingly as marginalized puppets.

At this point in history the international money interests want western style socialist/leftists in power for the reasons I enumerated.
These big corporate players and banks own the media that spin out propaganda that Marlowe ,ignorantly and unknowingly ,picks up and parrots along with his buddies --- all the while thinking they are saving the world from evil.

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 1, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Those are interesting and familiar quotes, Marlow.

I used to be an institutional broker for a U.S. primary government securities dealer when I finished my MBA. I lasted about 2 years, and finally we came to terms. I was too often questioning my boss who told me he didn't care what I thought as long as we generated trades. Boy, was I conflicted. What I learned there later formed an insight for a dissertation.

When I got back from my military service I bounced around for a few years until I found myself involved in making money on the wrong side of the tracks. In those days I hung out with people who made their living conning other people, mainly in vice. I cleaned-up my life and went on and got a formal education. So when I left the investment industry, I thought it was an even bigger con game than anything I had seen on the seedier side of society. They made LOTS more money, and as the Texans say, "with a mouth full of 'gimme' and hand full of 'much obliged.'" Very slick, very "smart," very sophisticated, especially with numbers.

Mathematics might be something pure, honorable, and interesting (like a puzzle is curious and interesting) in school and academically. But when they get applied directly to reality, either reality or mathematics loses something in the process. It doesn't seem to me that one can use mathematics to be relevant AND accurate AND complete. Something gives.

All modeling seem to entice us like Sirens of mythology.
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 1, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Well Largo, mighty appropriator of others' words...

What is it? What is mathematics?

Feel free to google as many quotes as you wish.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 1, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Ward

That's at least taking the form of independent thinking. I like that.

And as usual you jumped past your initial distorted view, in this instance of the Nordic countries as oil-driven. Were you driven by ideology? What about Sweden and Finland?

MikeL

I see your values shining through in the things you write. I appreciate the way you describe your experiences very much. I can relate to that...
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Oct 1, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
Where is God when you need him to keep the federal crags open?
MH2

climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
He's in Yos taking a much-needed vacation.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
At long last: Werner in total internal control of YNP:

Credit: Ward Trotter

( Those are suppose to be ducks flying there)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 1, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
I guess the American God is occupied with buying a new gun...

Guys and guns, boys and toys

"America has a free-for-all gun culture, which, unsurprisingly, means that America also has a problem with children getting accidentally killed by guns. Specifically, America has a problem with boys in particular getting into accidents with guns, as reported by the New York Times. In its review of the data, the Times found that male shooters fired nearly all guns that were accidentally fired and killed a child. Boys made up 80% of the victims of accidental gun deaths of children. Reporters Michael Luo and Mike McIntire described boys as having a "magnetic attraction of firearms", and added this:

Time and again, boys could not resist handling a gun, disregarding repeated warnings by adults and, sometimes, their own sense that they were doing something wrong.

So, what is it with boys and guns? Presumably, the same thing that defines the relationship of grown men and guns.

Gun-owning is a largely male phenomenon in the US. Forty-five percent of American men own guns while only 15% of women do. Sixty percent of adults with guns in America are white men, even though white men are just one third of the US population. Despite some attempts by gun lobbyists and marketers to try to sell more guns to women, the fact of the matter is that gun-owning isn't really about "safety" and "crime", so much as it's a very costly form of identity politics."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/01/gun-control-toys-boys
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 1, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
I know, MH2. I hear you.

Be who and what you are. Be what you cannot help yourself but be. Do what you cannot help but do. Be so yourself that there is not a single discursive thought that directs you. If you know what and who you really are, all things fall into place. (It's difficult to explain this.)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
I guess the American God is occupied with buying a new gun...

Maybe God was similarly preoccupied with the US and Allies shipping guns to the Norwegian underground before and after the Nazi invasion of Norway --- a nation that was too stupid, or complacent, or enlightened to have any of their own guns (to speak of) to adequately attempt to defend themselves.

BTW the first thing the Nazis did after their invasion of these small countries was to obtain the records of the gun owners from resident bureaucrats for immediate confiscation.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 1, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
Ward

The United States were of great help to Norway - there's no doubt about that.. and the support from the States after the war was invaluable and helped Norwegians to (re)build their country... Norway is still looking to America for inspiration.

When it comes to the war and winning the war, we first and foremost have to look to the east... thank God for the Russians... they suffered a lot... and won in the end...

The Soviet Union lost around 14% of their 1939 population, while both USA and Norway lost 0,32% of their 1939 population, during WW2.


To repeat: ... And as usual you jumped past your initial distorted view, in this instance of the Nordic countries as oil-driven. Were you driven by ideology? What about Sweden and Finland?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 1, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
Well Largo, mighty appropriator of others' words...

What is it? What is mathematics?

Feel free to google as many quotes as you wish.


A question, at least an honest question, is an entreaty for information for which you have no idea per the "right" answer, or any answer. What you have above is what we call in psychology a set-up, meaning the faux question was asked to illicit a response different than the "right one" you have in your head, and once delivered, you can set the world straight.

I suggest you ditch the shenanigans and shameless "questions" and simply state the "right answer" you already have in your brainpan per what math really and truly means to you. I have no idea what you answer is in this regards but I'l willing to listen to your take on the subject - but I'm not willing to fiddle about with silly games.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
The Soviet Union lost around 14% of their 1939 population, while both USA and Norway lost 0,32% of their 1939 population, during WW2.

Much of that was due to Stalin and the depraved state he rendered that nation. Remember , Stalin forcefully starved about as much of the Ukrainian ( and other subject populations) in the tragic collectivization , purges, and internments of the 1930s than the Germans killed in WW2.
Hitler was convinced that Russia was too weak, because of Lenin, Stalins ,and The Bolshevik's appalling draconian treatment of the population for the 20 yrs. prior. This strongly encouraged his subsequent Operation Barbaroosa.
He underestimated the Russians and their weather ---a fatal error that Napolean also committed . Russians are tough people. very tough, and very resourceful when the chips are down. Their weather is their best weapon.

The non-aggression pact Hitler signed with Stalin further convinced Hitler that the Soviet empire was ripe for the picking.
History and his own wicked deranged state proved otherwise.

Your gratitude towards the" Soviets "must remain historically provisional--- as that of a temporary military ally. The Soviets treatment of Eastern Europe proved they had nothing but totalitarian ill -intent for all of Europe, and the rest of the world.
If it were not for the West, primarily the US, the Soviets would have thoroughly dominated Scandinavia like they did the other Baltic states ,and your national dish would now be borsch...Comrade
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 1, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
Ward

You say: "Your gratitude towards the Soviets must remain provisional as that of a temporary military ally. The Soviets treatment of Eastern Europe proved they had nothing but totalitarian ill intent for all of Europe.
If it were not for the West, primarily the US, the Soviets would have dominated Scandinavia like they did the other Baltic states and your national dish would be borsch..."

You're guessing Ward, but I do not see your altenative history as too far out. That's also how the situation was read in Norway after the war. Finland has had some confrontations with their eastern neighbour through the years.

And as usual Ward - you're talking about something else when you still have a question to answer - seeing Sweden and Finland as oil-driven nations - is your anti-welfare-state-ideology behind?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
all of which is being fueled by the oil offshore and the international interests that will one day take control of it, if it doesn't dry up.

I was clearly referring to Norway here. I never once mentioned Finland or Sweden.
Besides, the point you are making , if it is a point, is meaningless.
Those countries may be less of a cherry for the forces that are hungry ,but they are and will be swallowed nonetheless. The fact that they are EU participants underscores my point.

If you and your countrymen refuse to acknowledge documented history ,or prevailing forces, then that is your problem. We've got plenty in the US with that same problem.
Won't be the first time.

FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 1, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
but I'm not willing to fiddle about with silly games.

That's rich.


Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 1, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
but I'm not willing to fiddle about with silly games.

That's rich.


Then bust a move, a real move, a move from your very own self, sans vectoring it off ANYONE else, and tell us what you mean per math. And mean what you say per your own words and insight.

That very well might be rich if you'd give yourself half a chance. Any piss ant can cast aspersions, or flip it back on the other dude (called "other-ating"). This is what MH2 does frequently. It leaves us to believe they have no confidence in their own ideas and beliefs and experiences, which is a shame.

JL
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 1, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
It doesn't seem to me that one can use mathematics to be relevant AND accurate AND complete. Something gives. All modeling seem to entice us like Sirens of mythology (MikeL)

It works pretty well in the natural sciences, particularly physics, but the social sciences is another matter.

You guys need to give JL a break on his knowledge of math. He's been castigated enough in this area. Get back to the Siren of No-thingness.
MH2

climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
(It's difficult to explain this.)

No one explains life, MikeL.

We have a bunch of cool aphorisms, though.
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