Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 16441 - 16460 of total 22700 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
WBraun

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
Yes that's good too. DMT.

Just see .... this man DMT has good brain .....
jstan

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
Thanks, MikeL. Solo climbing (Bachar, Honnald, at al) is a fairly spectacular example of style on a level with difficulty or technical achievement. When a number of participants press against the confining edges of difficulty style is fundamentally another arrow in one's athletic quiver, another means to distinguish among top runners.

ghastly mix of metaphors . . .

Fascinating! Spoken by a person who made style and technical talent indistinquishable. You look at Pat's film and you see John floating gracefully up the rock. Style they say. Certainly, very graceful and controlled. Then you look at the holds. He was doing a one arm on a fingertip.

Style no longer fully describes the achievement.

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 24, 2013 - 07:17am PT
Psalm 127:1 Unless the Lord builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the Lord guards the city,
The watchman stays awake in vain.
2 It is vain for you to rise up early,
To sit up late,
To eat the bread of sorrows;
For so He gives His beloved sleep.
3 Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord,
The fruit of the womb is a reward.
4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior,
So are the children of one’s youth.
5 Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them;
They shall not be ashamed,
But shall speak with their enemies in the gate.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#312729
...God is the Great Zen archer (pulling the string), you are His arrow!



Psalm 118:15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation
Is in the tents of the righteous;
The right hand of the Lord does valiantly.
16 The right hand of the Lord is exalted;
The right hand of the Lord does valiantly.
17 I shall not die, but live,
And declare the works of the Lord.
18 The Lord has chastened me severely,
But He has not given me over to death.
19 Open to me the gates of righteousness;
I will go through them,
And I will praise the Lord.
20 This is the gate of the Lord,
Through which the righteous shall enter.

21 I will praise You,
For You have answered me,
And have become my salvation.

22 The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This was the Lord’s doing;
It is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day the Lord has made;
We will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I pray, O Lord;
O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.
27 God is the Lord,
And He has given us light;
Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar.
28 You are my God, and I will praise You;
You are my God, I will exalt You.

29 Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!
For His mercy endures forever.



Proverbs 24:3 Through wisdom a house is built,
And by understanding it is established;
4 By knowledge the rooms are filled
With all precious and pleasant riches.

.11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death,
And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.
12 If you say, “Surely we did not know this,”
Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it?
He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?

13 My son, eat honey because it is good,
And the honeycomb which is sweet to your taste;
14 So shall the knowledge of wisdom be to your soul;
If you have found it, there is a prospect,
And your hope will not be cut off.

21 My son, fear the Lord and the king;
Do not associate with those given to change;
22 For their calamity will rise suddenly,
And who knows the ruin those two can bring?



1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.


...your mind is your house, build it upon Christ and give thanks to God, clean your windows and take out the trash!


MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 24, 2013 - 10:18am PT
I'm stuck with words, Werner. If I needed to write the Absolute, I'd have to write Everything. I think about who I'm talking / writing to, and what I think needs to be said at the time. I'm always wrong. I can't help it.


I'm going to disagree with jgill and jstan (as imprudent as that might seem) about style versus technical achievement. Distinctions add clarity.

Style is primarily an expression of centeredness, at being at-one-ment with an environment. Whereas it takes Will to achieve physically daunting objectives, it is not Will that seems to be needed to produce grace, poise, or style in HOW an objective is achieved.

Will and raw courage does not create or express beauty in the world. Aplomb, elan, style seem more descriptive of a way of being, not a way of doing.

Being is more meaningful than doing. One can't measure being.


EDIT: We are "human beings." We are not "human doings."
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 11:43am PT
So far all we have of " style" thus far is a collection of supererogatory ( my spell checker just offered "superhero gators" for that one) intentions that are more or less completely defined by " will", since they are not required within the context of difficulty, and do not arise naturally but are superimposed .

I am thinking specifically of a climber bouldering , for instance.
This fully qualifies as a distinction that produces clarity:
The boulderer is engaged in an effort that has a well- defined goal ,namely, reaching the top of the boulder. This is what could be termed a natural outcome.

A native from the interior of New Guinea , never having been exposed to bouldering as such, could pretty much get the goal of the boulderer, in fairly short order.
If the same native were taken to a gymnastic meet he would be hard pressed to discern a similar goal --without being offered a somewhat lengthy explanation.
The goals at the meet would be more abstract: the product of a series of algorithmic routines.lol
The need for the evolution of style in athletic endeavor derives from the abstract nature of the activity that requires it.
An ice skaters goal is the completion of a series of movements . Our native would not know when something was accomplished or achieved without explanation. On the other hand if he is taken to view a 100m sprint , or a high jump- no explanation is required , he gets it.

Style as a consideration in athletics rises in proportion to the abstract nature of the activity.
It is a measuring tool that is required to make ever finer measurements to assess achievement and performance in light of the conspicuous absence of natural goals.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 24, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
Just see .... this man DMT has good brain .....

:-) I appreciate that but its not true Werner. I'm a stupid American too.

I worship American Gods.



A decent synopsis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gods

And this god has his American persona, too, as manifest in this very thread:

Anansi, a trickster spider-man from African folklore. He often makes fun of people for their stupidity, a recurring aspect of his personality in his old stories.

American Gods is an amazing novel. Not for everyone though (and I don't mean to be condescending, its rather self-deprecating, but you'd have to be familiar with the novel to understand)

DMT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 24, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
MikeL

Some thoughts that could be of value or not.

Communicative styles - domination, problemsolving, compromise, adaption and avoidance: You, Largo, WBraun and Jan.

MikeL: You change style. I think you change between them all. And each one of them have got it's strengths and weaknesses. I think it is the teacher in you that makes you change to be able to connect. At the same time I think you're not always conscious about what you want to achieve when you change style, which might leave you in confusion. Maybe you are a true searcher.

Largo: Largo seems to be changing style at times, but it's superficial. He is in the domination mode, he has concluded beforehand and he pretends to be learning. When he is confused it is because his facts does not lead to his preconclusion. When that happens he pretends to have been joking or another act of escaping. Largo is in many ways the LEB of philosophy on this thread and the Mind thread.

WBraun: WBraun seems to always be knowing where he is. He is acting from a whole and quite consistent framework of thought. He is in the domination mode most of the time.

Jan: Jan is like MikeL changing between the communication styles quite often. She seems to be conscious about what she wants to achieve when she changes. And like WBraun she seems to be working from a quite consistent framework of thought which seldom leaves her confused. Her framework is also rich on perspectives. She's often a good role model.

My two cents.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Will and raw courage does not create or express beauty in the world

War Admiral. Style, beauty , grace, good looks , athletic prowess
Credit: Ward Trotter

Seabiscuit: no style, ungainly, somewhat ugly by comparison, awkward, the proverbial underdog.

Credit: Ward Trotter




" once a horse gives Seabicuit that old look-in-the-eye he begins to run to parts unknown"

Seaboscuit's victory at Pimlico in 1938 was beautiful .
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 24, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
My favourite: Red Rum

Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Jul 24, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
My father-in-law, Richard Beasley, rode trainer Mel Stute’s first
winner at the Los Angeles County Fair in Pomona—long
before it was called Fairplex Park.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Fairplex Park.

I pass right by there on the Link train. (LA metrolink)

They have concerts there when the LA county fair is in town.
They set up the stage near where the post gate normally is.
Saw Al Green there once and The Righteous Brothers the next year.

Have some friends who knew Corey Nakatani's family-- he grew up in a tough family in Covina. His younger sister was murdered early in his career. His Japanese father had been in an internment camp during WW2

Tough kid. Channeled his anger into a brutal sport.
Great Jockey though



Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 24, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Largo: Largo seems to be changing style at times, but it's superficial. He is in the domination mode, he has concluded beforehand and he pretends to be learning. When he is confused it is because his facts does not lead to his preconclusion. When that happens he pretends to have been joking or an other act of escaping. Largo is in many ways the LEB of philosophy on this thread and the Mind thread.
--

Sometimes I have a hard time understanding you Marlow, possibly because your English is strangely phrased.

What your probelem is, I trust, is you're not used to hearing anyone but science types make declarations of any kind, believing as you do that they are the only one who have the "facts" to back up declarations. You lack the experiences to understand differently, so I honestly don't hold it against you. How would you otherwise know? You couldn't. That's the challenge Mike, Jan and I have in presenting some of our ideas. The data was not arrieved at through discursive means, and that's a concept largely lost on those here, who assume anything non-discursive must be intuitive, fuzzy felings, beliefs, or whatever, as opposed to knowing.

While you accuse me of posturing in terms of "learning," I have noticed that you have never asked a single honest qustion, the earmark of someone wanting to learn, and instead are content to toss out things in a transparent passive-aggresive fashion, always aiming at undermining credibility. That's a sneaky game, Marlow, and I'd wager you've learned little to nothing in meantime. I'm afraid you'll have to return to that coner and think it over. I'd expect a little more from a jazz lover.

I've only been confused here in believing that people were actually interested in exploring things beyond the discursive or evaluating mind. In that case I was confused and mistaken indeed. This thread has all the markers of an old-farts club, with me leading the way, mistaken as I was that it was otherwise.

JL

jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 24, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
What your problem is, I trust, is you're not used . . .

It seems it's always others who have the problems . . . such is life on this thread


Style (Webster's): "a characteristic mode of expression or action."

And, yes, it requires an act of will if it is not required to accomplish an athletic feat. IMHO MikeL is referring to a more metaphysical interpretation of the word.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 24, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
It seems it's always others who have the problems . . . such is life on this thread


Exactly. But it's important that "problem" in this sense is not seen or felt as an existential value judgement, but rather an experiential problem, or challenge. To wit: If someone has never bouldered, it would be hard to discuss the fine points, which largely rest on direct experience. In that case, bouldering would have to be discussed as a concept, and in the real world bouldering is a life experience.

Venturing past the discursive mind is an experience, not an idea or a concept or belief. For someone not accustomed to that terrain, it is a "problem" and a first rate challenge to try and get some notion of the terrain, so to speak, as you're using discursive language to try and wrangle the hyper-discursive. And this can at best only be an approximation, and a really vague and sketchy one when seen from without. People are left to start guessing what their minds say it must be like: inutitive, feelngs, et all. But these are all projections.

JL
MH2

climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
People are left to start guessing what their minds say it must be like: inutitive, feelngs, et all. But these are all projections.


It might be better to only call them guesses and leave psychoanalysis out of it.


Or are you counter-projecting?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection


Jung writes that "All projections provoke counter-projection when the object is unconscious of the quality projected upon it by the subject."
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 24, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
. . . you're not always conscious about what you want to achieve when you change style, which might leave you in confusion. Maybe you are a true searcher.

Thanks, Marlow!

I use whatever works. I don't make those decisions consciously. I used to back off from anger, thinking that it was an indication of immaturity, uncontrolled passion, or an insensitivity to people's feelings. Nowdays, I don't see any disposition that way. All serve purposes. I've even walked out of class when my students were not prepared. I love people in my heart, so what shows up in and from me is the best that I can do.

As they say in consulting, "I may be wrong, but I am rarely in doubt." :-)


Jgill:

I'm not clear what I mean. I've been reading up on aesthetics, and I'm not finding what I'm looking for. Maybe style is not the right word. Fluidity, or being at-one within a situation, might be closer. Again, being . . . not doing. It's the dance that I'm trying to point to. When the subject and the object drop off, there is only the being. Doing simply takes care of itself.

"Deprivation [a route on Mt. Hunter, Alaska] taught me about the existence of this mystic path in the mountains . . . . How can I be tired while climbing on the mountain when I have become the mountain? I have searched within myself through both passive and active meditation, for the tools to open this ‘door’ whenever I will it. I still search." (Twight, 2001: 147).

(I'll take it back. I'm not sure that Will what separates the drive for achievement from style. I'm confused with my articulations.)

Right now, this style vs. achievement thing is a project for me. I'll be teaching a business ethics course later this summer to grads, and I'm searching for a way to express what I've been seeing. What I want to say is that an orientation to achievement (financial objectives, doing) in business is ok if done properly, but a focus on style (how one manages / leads, being) would be better (assuming that one can achieve objectives).

We are all born into our lives as givens. They are our destinies. It's *how* we live our lives that matters. It's not what we kill, conquer, create, or control--other than ourselves, perhaps.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 24, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
It might be better to only call them guesses and leave psychoanalysis out of it.
--


I don't know enough about psychoanalysis to "include" it in anythig I'm saying.

My point, simply, is that when any of us are left with the impossible task of trying to describe someplace where we have never been, we will perforce "project" whatever we imagine based on our past experience and conditioning, what we've heard and believe, and so forth. The main point is that these projections are not based on any empirical or experiential data. We are, in a real sense, simply guessing. IOWs, I'm not using projection in an antique Freudian sense whereby as a defence to untoward feelings and attributes, a person projects these onto someone else.

If yuo want to look for unconscious triggers and drivers (what drives behavior) here, look at all the looping around people do, the unconscious plan being that we never move beyond the discursive, and instead spend all kind of time spinning in place and waxing about "better" and so forth, sans growth and expansion.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 24, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Jung writes that "All projections provoke counter-projection when the object is unconscious of the quality projected upon it by the subject."

I'll bet that Jan has something to say about this.

The problem with wikipedia is that it simplifies many things for an average readership. All scholarship is tricky, full of mines and quicksand, and nuanced. (Not that anyone HERE wouldn't understand perfectly--that is, if scholars understood anything perfectly themselves).

I'd refer to Jung's student, Erich Neumann. Neumann explained projections a little bit differently in his book on the origins and development of consciousness.

Archetypes are symbols in the unconscious (the collective memory of the species) that bubble-up under various conditions. Symbols cannot be articulated consciously very readily. (Signs can.) When being is first confronted with ambiguous and awesome environments, the unconscious throws up an archetype that is projected onto the environment (raw sensations prior to categorizations / interpretations). Those archetypes are then taken in interpretatively more or less consciously and understood. So there is a double projection going on. For the most part, the conscious ego or individual has nothing to do with the process. It's what's naturally seen by all members of the specie at that stage of development.

What could be archetypes? The Great Mother, Father figures, heroes, the redemptive Son, Gods and Goddesses, Living Earth, among other things. Archetypes are programs developed over eons by a specie.

Ever notice how every child is afraid of the dark? It's remarkable given that almost never has any young child experienced real terror in the dark. But many of our ancestors have.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Thoughtful posts recently. Thanks.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
I would have a lot to say here but in two hours I am leaving for the airport to wrestle four dogs and a cat from Okinawa to Colorado which should definitely be an existential experience!

There are retirement transitions and then there are retirement transitions! Anyway, wish me luck in maintaining my Boddhisattva cool!
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