Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
the bible says almost nothing about oral sex

this is one of the only mentions, and appears to have no problem with it

Song 2:3, "Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the young men. In his shade I took great delight and sat down, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."

The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:35pm PT

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 19, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
Norton. That is about fruit, not oral sex.

Let's be literal and precise.

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 19, 2013 - 04:27pm PT

I've been wanting to say this for a long time: your characterization of two minds is probably a poor but worthy attempt.

We use both types of mind, as you and Mike described them. They are both clicking away constantly. I suppose that you find value in concentrating on suppressing the "discursive mind" through meditation. I could meditate my ass off and never be able to reach that raw experience that I got the first time I jumped El Cap. It is so far out there that it is impossible to explain to an Earth Person.

Usually when we look at a complex system, which is what the brain is, we try to characterize it into categories, much like reductionism. You are applying reductionist methods when you start to break down the mind into different parts, such as right/left, discursive, etc. This method is usually productive when trying to understand components of a complex system. You have to start somewhere.

Many areas of interest have what are called "lumpers and splitters". The lumpers group things together while the splitters break things up into a zillion components. In reality, it is a spectrum, and while it may be useful to break that spectrum into parts to discuss it, they become arbitrary at some point.

After reading Mike's characterization of the discursive mind, I have been thinking about it as I work. I'm all zoned in correlating strata over vast distances and doing my own characterization of depositional environments and the resulting reservoir rocks and the behavior of differing accumulations.

It takes a lot of concentration, but as I click away I notice that I'm listening to music, odd thoughts pop up, and basically there is a very intuitive action going on as I work. I would not call that action discursive using your definitions. It is the other mind. Every now and then it stands up and slaps me up the side of my noggin.

When we are awake, we are constantly dealing with direct stimulus on one hand, and on the other hand your mind is doing something very different in the "background." I assume that this background is what you and Mike try to isolate and experience in a distilled state.

We all do this all of the time. I've had plenty of out of the blue Ah hah! moments that just popped into my mind.

I find that useful. When I am working an area, there are probably 10 other geologists working it at the same moment, and hundreds have looked at the same data that I am seeing. Rarely I have had Eureka moments. I'm doing something and out of the blue a light bulb goes off. It may be something that I did decades ago, and suddenly I get this realization that comes from over the outfield fence. I'm not consciously thinking about it at all. It just pops up.

These are really interesting and I must write them down, because they are very much like dreams. When I awake from a dream, the memory of it fades very rapidly, and these moments are similar.

Keep a pencil and paper around.

I will say that characterizing the mind is tricky business. It is popular to use devices such as left/right brain function, when it is almost certainly far more complicated than that. I suspect that your splitting thought into two categories will also turn out to be an artificial line. The truth will end up being far more complicated.

Characterization is always a sketchy problem with complicated systems. I have little doubt that the mind is far more complicated than two or three basic domains. I feel like the mind is far more complicated than this.

I'm Be Here Now as much as anyone. Sometimes an experience is raw clarity, like stepping off of a big building at 3:00am. Man. If I could bottle that up and sell it, I would be the wealthiest man on the planet.

It feels good. I've never been able to find it anywhere else, and even BASE jumping got boring sometimes. I had an experience like that when I got charged by a griz once. No conscious thought. Just awareness and action. Maybe Mike and you can get to that level of awareness by meditating.

Jul 19, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
Good thoughts, BASE104.

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
Seems like everybody had a little time away, hopefully to reflect, and allow thoughts to pool and emotions to simmer..

It's really just another way to hunker down into an old fart kind of stasis, replete with smugness, surity, and the garden variety grousing about the "other guy," who is always (fill in the blank). It's how us old folks often act when faceed with anything "new," or posturing as new, at leaxst to us. We are, literally, old dogs fixed in our ways.

Base has demonstrated a few times that he will be casually working along and ideas or answers will just pop into his head. This happens to us all. Maybe for Base his most physical meditative state is when he's sitting behind a computer screen looking at the same mundane graphs and numbers like he did yesterday and the day before, and the day before.. Whereby his mind is so in this position, his brain is able to venture off in other directions and reflect
on other transpired deadends. Jus quessing.

Isn't it for most of us though, in our quiet times. Times when we can think deeply, and reflect
on a past quandary that our awareness is at its brightest? And if we're able to have an unbiased attitude our brain can weigh the facts without prejudice. Giving us the chance to make a change of mind inside our brain.

Time in reflection can lead to enlightenment

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Norton this didn't even come out of the bible
Who's bible are you readin?

Song 2:3, "Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the young men. In his shade I took great delight and sat down, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."

Just by the way it reads says it didn't come from The Bible
It feels like the book of Mormon, or somp'in else?

Somewhere out there
Jul 19, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
please don't be upsets if I continue to consider the religious slow.

Sorry, but I can't really respect folks who believe in what I see as magic, the invisible and an imaginary father figure. I feel I am beyond religion, but hesitate to try to make others follow my example - as I am just as ignorant or smart as the next guy. We have to understand that nothing makes us more special nor less special than the next human being. To think otherwise would just be arrogant to say the least.

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2013 - 09:26pm PT

It's unfortunate that Intelligent Design is a ploy by creationists to advance their anti-Darwinian ideas,

Are you kidding me? When God said He created the universe, doesn't that imply that His design was in fact intelligent? Insomuch that when He put it into motion that it would work coherently together down thru the millennia to give and sustain the life of all these ants at my feet right now!! Ouch!

Ploy? Please!

Mountain climber
Jul 19, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
Norton this didn't even come out of the bible
Who's bible are you readin?

Yes it did.

Song of Soloman 2:3 (KJV)

[1] I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys.
[2] As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters.
[3] As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste.
[4] He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love.
[5] Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples: for I am sick of love.
[6] His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me.
[7] I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please.
[8] The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
[9] My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
[10] My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
[11] For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
[12] The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
[13] The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.
[14] O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.
[15] Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes.
[16] My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies.
[17] Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my beloved, and be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether.

This is deep stuff ... G-d is brilliant.


The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:
Peshat (פְּשָׁט) "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning.[1]
Remez (רֶמֶז) "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash (דְּרַשׁ) from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') "secret" ("mystery") or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

You can understand this on many levels. The love, (Eros, Philos, and Agape) between a husband and wife, and prophetically the love between true believers and Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Messiah, and the coming of the Messianic Age, 1000 years of peace -- The Millenium.

Jul 19, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
THIS le petit mort, jgill?

I wanted to hold the moment as long as possible . . . le petit mort, the little death. the post-coital depression, the fleeting saddening loss when [climbing the route] is over (Joe Simpson, The Beckoning Silence, 2003: 116-117).

BTW, some buddhists have described bodily death as 100 times more pleasurable than organism, if one can remain aware through it. That's what the Tibetan Book of the Dead is ostensibly about.

I guess what I was trying to point to, jgill, was the fear that people have about death--but there are two fearsome deaths. One regards the death of the ego / personality when one loses one's body; the other death regards losing the supports and foundations that make-up the ego / personality. Both are frightening to most folks.

EDIT: People can change . . . but only through a death.

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2013 - 09:56pm PT

I feel I am beyond religion,

Beyond religion yes, beyond God, No!

Religion says do good, recieve good. Works on the earth. But that's not neccisarily how it works in the spiritual world. Jesus said, love everyone as ur brother! Even love ur enemies. Insomuch as feed them. Take them into your home. And turn ur cheek when they strike against you.

The bible used the example; don't even the tax collectors love their children? I'm trying to think of an example of someone you hate. Don't even the politicians love their children? How easy is that? It's easy to love someone of your own kind. I think Jesus meant, seek out the ones that hate you and show them some love! Where you see this in action, you will see a true Christ follower!

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2013 - 10:12pm PT

Yes it did

Upon reflection. And reading my bible, i see where i was wrong! Sorry Norton!!

Thanks Klimmer!!!!

It is so Beutiful!

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
This was a fantastic paragraph!

Put differently, mention of ultra discursive forays are automatically trargeted as threats to sanity and reason, and are the targets of our most fantastic projections - wu wu, intuitive, fuzzy feelings, way-out ideas, Nehru coats, etc. - none of which are themselves ultra material, but rather so much white noise and mental hand wringing from the matrix itself. Then once we start placing virtue on staying put, we not only have the fossilized mental looping consistant with old farts, but we're so trapped by our own devices that the jailer, so to speak, can thrown away the key.

But how does this conjuncture with trying to teach a 7 yro multiplication, after they just learned addition and have a resilience toward something new ( known, different )?

Seems natural for the brain to not want to change its path?

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 19, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
I've been wanting to say this for a long time: your characterization of two minds is probably a poor but worthy attempt.

That's your characterization, BASE, not mine. You should watch your projections. The best way is to ask questions.

There is only one mind. People often mistake the evaluating/discursive aspect as our "real" mind. And everything else (intuition, feelngs, sensations, et al) are involuntary "things" or content.

Mind itself has no inherent content (empty). That's why I have said that trying to get there or wrangle same at the level of the discursive is the surest way to never leave the launching pad.

But you can have a fun time talking arging about it, the unconscious design being that you never leave GO but keep spinning in place.

Questions can start to spring you. But it it won't be anyone's answers that do the magic.

Paradoxically, a solid way to get beyond the discursive is directly throgh it. But that's not easy work, and involves massive questioning which people on this thread are - it would seem - constitionally incapible of doing, which is why I left off with that angle. As they say: What was I thinking?

But getting back to the Nehru coat . . . LOL Those were some fun exchanges. The whole wu wu voodoo shuck and jive horsefeathers magic fuzzy feelings magic lantern gini mummy dust mojo Master Gizmo rap. And all that.


Jul 20, 2013 - 05:35am PT
BTW, Base, the characterizations I made about the working and thinking mind are just metaphors, at best. Secondly, they may not be Largo's characterizations. There is a base awareness underneath all that doesn't move. Sort of like silence.

(Hey, . . . "Base 104" could refer to that!)

Somewhere out there
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Blowbacker - That's funny, you forgot a couple of words..

Religion says do good, recieve good. Works on the earth. But that's not neccisarily how it works in the spiritual world.

The words you forgot are "my" and "imaginary" - spiritual world.


Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Upon reflection. And reading my bible, i see where i was wrong! Sorry Norton!!

that's ok, Blue, Forgiveness is Divine

I know my bible pretty damn good

how about this one?

"Comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable"
(Very New Testament)

Jul 20, 2013 - 12:33pm PT

Ha ha ha ha ha. Good one.

Hebrews 1:3
Jul 21, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
The creation is nothing compared to Him who created it...

Psalm 145
The Lord Extolled for His Goodness.

A Psalm of Praise, of David.

1 I will extol You, my God, O King,
And I will bless Your name forever and ever.
2 Every day I will bless You,
And I will praise Your name forever and ever.
3 Great is the Lord, and highly to be praised,
And His greatness is unsearchable.
4 One generation shall praise Your works to another,
And shall declare Your mighty acts.
5 On the glorious splendor of Your majesty
And on Your wonderful works, I will meditate.
6 Men shall speak of the power of Your awesome acts,
And I will tell of Your greatness.
7 They shall eagerly utter the memory of Your abundant goodness
And will shout joyfully of Your righteousness.

8 The Lord is gracious and merciful;
Slow to anger and great in lovingkindness.
9 The Lord is good to all,
And His mercies are over all His works.
10 All Your works shall give thanks to You, O Lord,
And Your godly ones shall bless You.
11 They shall speak of the glory of Your kingdom
And talk of Your power;
12 To make known to the sons of men Your mighty acts
And the glory of the majesty of Your kingdom.
13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And Your dominion endures throughout all generations.

14 The Lord sustains all who fall
And raises up all who are bowed down.
15 The eyes of all look to You,
And You give them their food in due time.
16 You open Your hand
And satisfy the desire of every living thing.

17 The Lord is righteous in all His ways
And kind in all His deeds.
18 The Lord is near to all who call upon Him,
To all who call upon Him in truth.
19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him;
He will also hear their cry and will save them.
20 The Lord keeps all who love Him,
But all the wicked He will destroy.
21 My mouth will speak the praise of the Lord,
And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.

...for Saving Grace is by His Son, JESUS!

Behold, A Reaper Went Forth to Reap
Sunday, July 21, 2013
(Galatians 6:7-9) It may seem obvious that whatever you sow is what you're going to reap, but it's that very principle that Paul had to teach to the churches of Galatia.

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