Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 14, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
Sorry Ward, you're on my The Chief and go-B list as well. :(

.....

I can't stand the guy because of his dishonest actions.

So why is it so hard for you to understand I might feel about go-B similarly but along other lines?

Respect the right, respect the person. Of course. But DO NOT respect the belief (aka the truth-claim) that the God of the Universe ordered His chosen people to smite all the infidels of this or that city. That is my attitude. My prescription, as well.

It's painfully clear some people are powerfully confused between respect the right to belief and respect the belief, but I'm not one of them.

What field is this?


Is it not enough to say what I said? or is it not enough to say it is an inter-disciplinary field? Must it have a name to be legitimate in your mind. A name recognized by 100 people? a million? a billion? by Bieber too and Kim Kardashian, what?

I'm wondering if you have a life of empirical evidence to toss into the ring.

What, you think I've lived in KS, in my grandma's basement all my life, lol!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 14, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
OK. All of you religious folks own up:

A short questionnaire:

1) Do you believe in evolution?

2) If no, is it because of a conflict with scripture, which is infallible?

3) Do you believe that the Earth is 4.6 million years old?

And, the big one:

4) Do you feel that creation science (AKA Intelligent Design") should be taught in public school biology classes?

Please answer honestly. I won't pick you out and make fun of you. This is easier than a poll.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 14, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
I won't pick you out and make fun of you.

But I will.

As I "believe" in updating beliefs. As I'm a "believer" in updated beliefs. In the interest of better living.

(it's been fun, BASE, thanks for the back n forth!)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 14, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Sorry Ward, your on my The Chief and go-B list as well. :(

I won't be losing any sleep over that designation anytime soon.

It's about time you guys quit shooting fish in a barrel and start some measure of debate with the proponents of Intelligent Design not often mentioned , or sought after.
http://www.stephencmeyer.org/research.php
http://www.stephencmeyer.org/

BTW i'll resurrect a point I' ve made numerous occasions on this thread : human history has just witnessed , in the 20th century, the types of grim societies founded on scientific materialism in which religions as such were banned outright.
The human toll was ghastly.
These totalitarian 'experiments' had their High Fructose guys laying the groundwork in the formative phases, fighting the' good fight' in papers and journals and cafe societies throughout the west .Useful and well-meaning progenitors for the Stalins that would come later.




High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 14, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
yeah yeah, shouldn't come as any surprise he's been "The Chief-listed." :(
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 14, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
yeah yeah, shouldn't come as any surprise he's been "The Chief-listed."

This is a prime example of "the-guilt-by-association" game.

Will you be marching me off to the Siberian Gulags to strains of the Volga Boat Song when you guys finally put padlocks on all the churches?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 14, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
A short questionnaire:

1) Do you believe in evolution?

of course not, obviously monkeys don't look like us

2) If no, is it because of a conflict with scripture, which is infallible?
correct, the Bible is the Word of God, every bit of it

3) Do you believe that the Earth is 4.6 million years old?
irrelevant because it was created in six days and back then a day was a long time

And, the big one:

4) Do you feel that creation science (AKA Intelligent Design") should be taught in public school biology classes?

yes because the bible explanation is the Word of God
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 14, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
Thanks Norton,

Everyone else?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 14, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Six months ago, or whenever it was, there was all this "Post up, Go-B" "Sorry, Go-Be" "Come back, Go-Be, we miss you" - well you got what you wished for. Ever more cut and past at bronze age value...

OK HFCS, this is my last post on ST!



At church today John MacArthur said, when Jesus said He was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God! That either it was true, he knew it was false and is a deceiver, or he didn't know it was false and he is a madman...

Matthew 11:2 Now when John, while imprisoned, heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?” 4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive sight and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”!!!

Hebrews 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

O for a thousand tongues to sing

O for a thousand tongues to sing
my dear Redeemer's praise,
the glories of my God and King,
the triumphs of his grace!

My gracious Master and my God,
assist me to proclaim
and spread through all the earth abroad
the honors of thy Name.

Jesus! the Name that charms our fears
and bids our sorrows cease;
'tis music in the sinner's ears,
'tis life and health and peace.

He speaks, and listening to his voice,
new life the dead receive;
the mournful broken hearts rejoice,
the humble poor believe.

Hear him, ye deaf; his praise, ye dumb,
your loosened tongues employ;
ye blind, behold, your Savior come;
and leap, ye lame, for joy!

Glory to God and praise and love
be now and ever given
by saints below and saints above
the Church in earth and heaven.

Charles Wesley, 1740

photo not found
Missing photo ID#310881

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall give praise to God.”

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.



17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.



...I also say I'll never eat again when I over eat, so see ya on my next post! *<((:-o)

...And Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight, (It Is Well with My Soul)

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 14, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
OK HFCS, this is my last post on ST!

Now don't pout. Nobody wants this and you know it. There is a big d bet posting on ST and endlessly pasting chapter and verse on this thread.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 14, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
that creation science (AKA Intelligent Design")

There are numerous non-denominational ID proponents out there who approach the possibility of intelligent design from a scientific basis.

You brave new world types are not interested because of being overly concerned with appearing like intellectual behemoths next to a person who believes in angels and 6000yr old Earth.
Either that or you are still harboring a psychologically -driven grudge against ol' Aunt Martha who dragged you by your ear to church every week, long ago.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 14, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
appearing like intellectual behemoths next to a person who believes in angels and 6000yr old Earth.

WTF? Now you are sounding like The Chief. I don't know what you do for a living, but if you are a carpenter, you have me beat. I am a terrible carpenter.

We all have our strong points. Don't get upset if mine involves the history of the planet.

The only non-religion based ID that I know of is the folks who believed that the planet was seeded by aliens.

Evolution happened. Its evidence is overwhelming in the fossil record. The only way to turn that around is to say that God placed a bunch of fossil evidence just to mess with the minds of paleontologists.

There are numerous non-denominational ID proponents out there who approach the possibility of intelligent design from a scientific basis.

Post these numerous groups, OK?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 14, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Ok base

1) Do you believe in evolution?

2) If no, is it because of a conflict with scripture, which is infallible?

3) Do you believe that the Earth is 4.6 million years old?

You go first. Besides the planet, is ur belief that man and all animals grew out of a plant?
Is this the kind of evolution ur talking about?


Earth is 4.6 bill yro? Well if this is the age of the planet. And u say the universe is 15 bill.
Are you saying the planet was born or created 4.6 bill ago?

With all this do you prescribe to the big bang theory?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 14, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Post these numerous groups, OK?

I did not say 'groups ' I said 'proponents'

Lets start with some quotes, from the ol' groove yard of science

All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.
Max Planck


You might remember Planck from the story on QM

Einstein:

The scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation....His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an INTELLIGENCE of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work, in so far as he succeeds in keeping himself from the shackles of selfish desire

I could go on but you get the drift. Don't make me work too hard on a Sunday.lol

Modern proponents of ID who approach the possibility from a scientific perspective are growing in recent years , they are too numerous to mention.

I provided a link to Stephen Meyers work above.
He has become a sort of Dawkins of ID .

Evolution happened. Its evidence is overwhelming in the fossil record. The only way to turn that around is to say that God placed a bunch of fossil evidence just to mess with the minds of paleontologists.

I never suggested any of those things.
The mere fact that evolution occurred is not an argument in and of itself against ID, broadly defined.
Evolutionary science is certainly an argument against traditional religious creationism.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 14, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
Either that or you are still harboring a psychologically -driven grudge against ol' Aunt Martha who dragged you by your ear to church every week, long ago.

Haha, yeah, that must be it. I had to go to church for a while when I was little, but it was cool because I also had to wear a suit, and if I turned my jacket collar up I thought I looked like Bela Lugosi.

It was sort of a trade off.

And the church was Russian Orthodox, with big scary Rasputin priests, LOTS of incense, awesome gold-leaf iconography plastered all over the place, and everything done in Russian, which is a beautiful language even if you have no idea what they're singing.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 14, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
Here, a practical real-world case where science and politics intersect...



The proposal is to clone a mammoth, the question is: should we do it? My vote: Yes. At least for starters. Justifications: It would verify, directly or indirectly, a lot of our theory relating to genetics, microbiology and evolution. It would indubitably expand our knowledge bases in these and related disciplines further. It would further demonstrate to the naysayers, poo-poohers and deniers of science that science isn't just another ideological or political institution or invention (as if the world really needed more evidence). Later, if cloning ever posed problems, e.g., some social problem, it could then be regulated - and the human species once again could have the opportunity to show its art, its skill, on the "slippery slope" that the naysayers, alarmists and deniers (or tourons) all too eagerly like to throw in its face as "crazy" or "irresponsible."

As the world is (slowly in fits and starts) coming around to the realizations that there is indeed NO absolute celestial Law Giver to tell us what to do, the good and bad of it, and there really is no such thing as "It's playing God" that's anything more than vain, it really IS up to us. We are on our own, we are free solo, and we are the deciders. My vote on this one, on cloning at least a few individuals of the past is yes, let's clone. For educational purposes first and foremost.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/jul/14/wooly-mammoth-extinct-cloning-dna?INTCMP=SRCH

Interesting aside: "We have found as many mammoths in the past five years as we did in the previous 50, partly because global warming is melting the Siberian permafrost..."

jstan, it would be interesting to get Craig Venter's take. My sense of it is that he would NOT be so pessimistic on the chances of success - as the two scientists in aforementioned piece.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 14, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
You want to clone a mammoth? Go for it!
If US scientist are unable to do it because of politics I'm sure they could go to the phillipines or some where like that and do it. Heck why not go to India and clone some cows for more food!

Interesting thought, if you clone a mammoth from his bones, is he going resume where his brain left off when he died. And would be have the same personality?

Hey don't stop there, why ur at it could you clone my dead grandma?
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
BASE104

you misunderstood the point i made in regards to my "drowning" experience at 7 years old. the point was, i hadn't learned my lesson, in regards to staying away from rivers/deep water. i mean, there i was again, down by the docks of a river where i could hve easily fell in. i didn't now how to swim, i should have known better (although still only seven). like i said, we were having a lot of fun. my point was, that it was the whipping i got that detered me from continuing to go with my friends down to the river. i was already disobeying my father by doing so. as far as being dead, once again, i wasn't talking about God miraculously saving me that day. the last thing i recall was my cousin rowing his boat out to rescue me, and he was a good 35-40 yards away. obviously wasn't going to get to me in time since i was about to go under. i woke up a couple hours later on my grandmothers couch. i wasn't saying anything about God, just that i should hve learned to stay away from rivers, since i was "sick as a dog" for a good week afterwards.

my reference to God chastising His children (Christians) had nothing to do with my story. my father chastised me for going down by the rivers edge (after having warned me not to ever do so again). and it worked. God chastises believers, sooner or later, when we stray. He does it for the same reason my father did, because He loves us. i wasn't even a Christian then, became a Christian shortly after i turned 8 years old.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
HFCS should just STFU with all his judgmental crappolla
He despises everyone of us, and has not a good word to say about anything here on ST.

HFCS stick to the topic, not the people behind the posts


and yes, we should clone a Mammoth
WBraun

climber
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
LOL .....
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