Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 16201 - 16220 of total 22396 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
What if I asked the Pope the same question that Largo has attempted to answer with authority.

The Pope would say that this Largo fella is completely wrong, and You must do this path my Religions way! We have studied this for 2000 years and found the truth, you must join the church and seek Jesus.

What makes Largo the authority?
No one outside 90% of the population that have been spoon fed one of the major World religions are even open minded to discuss this stuff.

Just one of many that say they know, yet contradicts everyone else that says they know.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 23, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Authority? On what? I've said simply if you want to know reality in a deeper way, you have to stop talking (thinking), and listen. I haven't said how you have to listen. There are many ways. And what the hell does the Pope have to do with it? I have never equated what I am saying with any formal religion.

Of coure, Marlow, you have a perfectl firm grip on what I am "selling." One might reasonably ask what is is that I am selloing by inviting you to shut your trap, to stop that silly wanking for a minute, and to listen to what you are rambling on about. If you were remotely honest about any of this you'd sing a diferent tune - of that we may be sure.

If you ever wantto get real, and get your ass out of that corner, and dof the pointy hat, give this place a call. I'll pay for your first week there. It's right down the road from you. And you won't die or start slobbering obver your own self in the process LOL.

Now no more of yur silly guff. Just get your ass in there and listen for change.

http://www.rinzai-zen.no/

JL
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Sep 23, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
how about you john?
stop preaching and surrender to
silence.

there is nothing to learn
in silence.

and nothing is at the
core of wisdom.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 23, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
It's too much fun razzing these folks. That's part of the tradition - stirring the pot. Eventually someone will step up, call their own bluff, and see what gives with non-thinking. Nobody can do the work for them, just as no one can "sell" them anything since whatever comes up is strictly their business. And it ain't about what comes up anyhow.

Tell the Pope while you're at it.

I gotta work now (discursive) or I'm going to writer's jail . . .

JL
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 23, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
you have to stop talking (thinking), and listen.

That is a demand. It is no different than the (your mainstream religion here) demand to kneel and pray. Religions always demand that people take a certain action to find their spiritual enlightenment.

How is your demand different? How are you not the same as a priest telling me that his way to enlightenment is the only way?

Yep. Same as the Priest. Same as the Rabbi. Same as every other broker of faith and spirituality. I see no difference.

Dave
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 23, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
But verily, you never answered the question per your koan training.

Sure I did. The answer is contained in my reply. Your discursive searching for an answer failed to satisfy your discursive mind, yet the answer was there. What is Mu?

Training? Lol. Truth is a pathless land. Your systems and training? I laugh robustly at the grasping.

Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Sep 23, 2013 - 06:38pm PT

I gotta work now (discursive) or I'm going to writer's jail . . .
a writer's words are his thread,
his imagination a needle.

with which he sews his own straight jacket.
immoble, now he must break off the needle's end,
drill out it's core,
and then shove it into in his arm,
administering a heroine moment.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 23, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
To help myself and others here better understand John's meditative practice, I took the liberty
of copying the description from the main web page of the link John posted.


Rinzai Zen

L glory and practice follows the Japanese Rinzai tradition: Direct experience of truth and reality through the sitting meditation (zazen).

Zen teaches that everything is relative to everything else. Through practice, we recognize that human beings do not exist alone, separated and isolated from the rest of the world.

When this inherent wisdom ripening, we recognize that any form, whether it is a rock or a bird, is part of the self.

To study Buddhism is to study itself.
Studying oneself is to forget oneself.
To forget oneself is to be enlightened by all things.

 Dogen Zenji
The center's teachers are Koshin Christopher Cain Osho. For daily teaching Koshin at Puget Sound Zen Center outside of Seattle, USA.

The Austrian zenlærer Genro Seiun Koudela Osho (1924-2010) was a teacher for the center from 1991 to 2004.

Koun Gordon Geist, who was ordained by Genro Osho in 2000, leading to the center daily. Koun began Zen practice with Shunryu Suzuki in San Francisco in 1964.



this IS helpful to me
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Sep 23, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
norton that is limp understanding.
a shortcut to conclusion.
a yield to genius.

some folks need
someone else's words
to summarize their statement.

eventually,
one graduates unto their own words.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 23, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
Sure I did. The answer is contained in my reply. Your discursive searching for an answer failed to satisfy your discursive mind, yet the answer was there. What is Mu?

Training? Lol. Truth is a pathless land. Your systems and training? I laugh robustly at the grasping.


Bunkum, El Cap. That's just paraphrazing old Japanese translated jibber jabber from old Zendos circa 1970. Now put that beer down and take your own self seriously for a minute rather than parroting back stuff you've scrubbed from old web sites and that rummy, Alan Watts.

Mu? Really? Do you have a dog? What did it say last time you listened LOL.

And just notice the tidal wave of jabberwocky that comes down the pike from simply telling people to shut up for a while and listen to themselves. Not to me or any other wanker. But to nothing else but their own process.

Like I said, the ferocious resistance to do so is telling.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 23, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
Someone said above that there will come a day when there will be no more belief in a God or gods.

It's hard to see that happening to any sentient species if they were aware of their own awareness. Whether by process or intuition, any immediate recognition of awareness is completely astounding, at least for some. If it weren't then the beings may not be sentient at all, Turing's Model or any other test of consciousness notwithstanding.

"Oh, Mike, we'll understand what consciousness is one day."

We've not made a single dent materially that I've seen or read.

You can diss God-this, diss Jesus-that, diss Buddha-whatever, or diss Krisha-X, but being aware of awareness appears to be completely beyond words, labels, models, or frameworks. You just can't pin it down. You can't say what it is. Not the tiniest tiny bit. Even those who purportedly know (and I've seen and talked to some of those guys--those taproots of humanity) cannot say what consciousness is. At most or best, they say it's emptiness. ("Oh, great . . . like that helps a lot!")

You can roast Largo all you want (and he may deserve his share of ire because he and the duck like to pull people's chains), but no one has any basis whatsoever for contradiction. None of you have any material basis for contradiction, and the great majority (about three standard deviations out from the mean) have no subjective bases for it either.

At the end of the day, there's seemingly no one you can believe about any of this stuff except yourselves.

"Yeah, like why the hell would anyone ever try?"

Why? Because the universe one day sent you a self-addressed memo.


Surf your awareness, dudes. It's the only wave in reality.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
If I set you up for a weekend with the Pope, so you can ask him any questions you want, all expenses paid.
Would you do it and think that you would be able to ask him any kind of question that we are discussing now, that he would answer in a candid manner that would deviate from the party line?

And that is where the problem lies, there are millions of belief systems about God, which one is correct?
All of them follow a Party line.

Are any of them correct? Is their argument sound?
Any one can come up with another debate scheme that will try and circumnavigate logic,reason and reality.
Why not listen to the Pope, and follow his wisdom?
Why not listen to Largo, and follow his wisdom?
(just kidding bro, this is just a meaningless intellectual debate, not a personal insult)

If anyone of you that could answer the questions that I have, that can be easily answered from a Scientific standpoint, then I would want to listen to the debate.
WBraun

climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
Someone said above that there will come a day when there will be no more belief in a God or gods.

It WILL happen.

Just as the night comes ......

and then comes the sun which illuminates a new day ....
MH2

climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
It's too much fun razzing these folks. That's part of the tradition - stirring the pot.


Cult talk. He's been brainwashed.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 23, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
Being aware of awareness appears to be completely beyond words, labels, models, or frameworks. You just can't pin it down.

Surf your awareness, dude. It's the only wave in reality.



When I quit clowning around, this is the long and the short of it - exactly. When awareness becomes aware of itself through some kind of miracle, everything else seems like plastic flamingos. If experiencing this miracle wasn't so amazing, do you really think we'd keep harping on it like this?

There are no beliefs required. No faith. No Gods. No doctrine. No worship. No secular organization. No gurus. No things. Just that wave.

Surf it, dude. It's a hell of a ride. But you can't do it with your mind.

JL
MH2

climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
"Oh, Mike, we'll understand what consciousness is one day."

We've not made a single dent materially that I've seen or read.


What sort of material dent would be acceptable to a person who says, "No thing is real?"
MH2

climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
There are no beliefs required. No faith. No Gods. No doctrine. No worship. No secular organization. No gurus. No things. Just that wave.


And "some kind of miracle?"

It can't be done with the mind? Speak for your own mind.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 23, 2013 - 08:48pm PT

take your own self seriously for a minute rather than parroting back stuff you've scrubbed from old web sites and that rummy, Alan Watts.

HAHAHAHAAAAA! That was a good one!


WEEG, are you back on the booze again? Why don't you go puke in a ditch, or on Crawford again. Someth'in you'll remember.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 23, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
That's just paraphrazing old Japanese translated jibber jabber from old Zendos circa 1970. Now put that beer down and take your own self seriously for a minute rather than parroting back stuff you've scrubbed from old web sites and that rummy, Alan Watts.

Less projection, more substance. I don't drink, have never read Watts, wasn't alive in 1970, much less parroting from the era. Have neither "scrubbed" or even read any websites on the topic. Some very old source material, many years ago, at most. No DT Suzuki translations or modern reinterpretations either.

Your smug posturing is the best comedy I've seen in a long while though, so keep it up.
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