Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 16181 - 16200 of total 22654 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 23, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
If these two condescening pricks in the form of Largo and Werner are the result of the sitting and "elightenment", then give me the rationalist/atheists and their ilk. At least they're not insufferable blowhards.

You have people telling you, on the same page here, that hey have indeed sat and investigated/experienced the meditative states. And returned to their same pre-existing beliefs in the end after experiencing the non-discursive state. Who are you to discount their experience? It is just as valid as yours.

Lunchtime reading today is from the Upanishads. And I do a fair amount of sitting in meditation myself, views mostly conform to eastern conceptions of "god". But damn ya'll are some egotistical buffoons, I'd rather listen to the schtizo guy on public trans.


go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 23, 2013 - 12:51pm PT

Speaking in Tongues?
WBraun

climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
LOL

elcap in his ass lost it.

sitting and enlightenment

You really need to understand that farther than splashing at the shallow end of the pool make crazy rants.

I make them too for a purpose :-)

Largo is exploring the subject matter and various experiences toward such a goal here about those.

No one here is ever claiming enlightenment nor has claimed be such.

You must be the only one to be "The" enlighten one here ......?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 23, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
WBraun, WBraun... choirboy till the end... and who knows after...

.. and mind you... not the choirboy of the grand server of life, no... Largo's choirboy...

...certainly serving some function in life...
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
more like an arrogant heckler from the bench

He can't debate like the real minds, so he throws in a mumbling of insults like a incoherent mental patient on the city corner
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 23, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
What Elcapinyoazz's rant clearly states is the common misunderstanding that there are no real, impersonal truths associated with non-discursive adventures, that any truth(s) are in fact fluid, person to person, and as such no personal perspective is any more valid than any other personal perspective, and anyone claiming as much is a "blowhard" and a spiritual poser. But again, there are incontrovertible impersonal truths hooked up with this work that have nothing to do with you or me, any more than gravity is a personal affair. What's more, spending some "quality time" meditating unsupervised and sans instruction is in no way a guarantee that you'll arrive at these impersonal truths. I can try every kind of boulder problem and the trying and flashing are two very different things. It's hared enough to get hold of these things (by nature ungraspable) in a controlled environment surrounded by people who have practiced and taught for many decades.

As we've said many times, this is not easy material. But many of the truths involved are not personal by nature, rather they are simply the realization of what is. Getting there usually involves letting go of our personal positions and beliefs till the way things are smack you upside the head. And if you believe that "you" have achieved some truth, you haven't. That "you" is normally the sticking point.

JL

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 23, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
MY GOD>>you all miss the point of "religion" "belief" and the lot and how to achieve it. The BRAIN is NOT the tool most valuable imo.

I went to many different faith based churches as a sampler long ago.

It was the beliefs of my small percentage indian blood that i gravitated to the most as it contained the least hypocrisy. Their gods are of nature that translate to their societal norms. They accepted Christianity quickly when introduced to it at a simple level due to the fact it closely resembled their nature born laws.

Belief is born from the HEART not the head. The soul is the anti head and if you ignore either your un balanced.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 23, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
the common misunderstanding that there are no

As I said, pompous beyond belief. It is utterly hysterical to me that you follow this with "you can't possibly grasp it by simply sitting, you must have an instructor and strive for decades being surrounded by the rest of the guru's ball-cupping syconphants".

I'll grant you that the conception of a "you", or "I" are the stumbling block. But more discursive pap from a "guru" is like the "it hurts when I hit my thumb with a hammer"...well,stop hitting your @#$%ing thumb then. You want to get past the discursive mind, let it happen. No amount of instruction or silly ass self-proclaimed gurus are going to get you beyond discursive mind, beyond self.

Peaking on a ten-strip of white fluff got me there. A grocery sack full of Macon, GA's finest cubensis got me there. Sitting can do it in the right circumstances. No amount of gurus or koans will.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 23, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
No amount of gurus or koans will.


Gurus? Who ever mentioned gurus. What is a guru anyhow? Who cares . . .

Instructors in these endeavors are really no different than teachers in grad school. If you want to know the material, everyone goes to the experts. What I hear you saying is that you believe there really are no experts per this material. And who, exactly is being arrogant here?

That much said, I'd be interested in hearing about your personal experiences with both gurus and koans (especially with koans) that led you to your conclusions. These experiences must be extensive for you to have formed such staunch beliefs.

Then again, perhaps you have never actually undergone koan study, and are simply guessing about what is involved, according to some fluff you scanned on the internet.

JL
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 23, 2013 - 03:49pm PT

As we've said many times, this is not easy material (JL)


Is that the royal "we" ?

How tempting! Slyly approaching no-thingness as a challenge, knowing any climber worth his salt will attempt something that is described as "difficult." Why not say "This is at least 5.13" ?


;>)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 23, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
You're flogging us a remedy Largo, an instructor, a method, a path or a revelation or a basinful of breadcrumbs, you're selling us something we don't want to buy why so eager? why so insistent? ... carrying on ... page after page... day after day... week after week... month after month... year after year...

Why not just park your discursive mind under a tree, in the shadow, listening to the birds... letting life flow? ...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 23, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
An instructor who's "practiced and taught for many decades"

If that's not a "guru", then we're rolling around in a semantics game.

The idea that you will, through discursive "instruction", gain access to the non-discursive state, is comical to me.

Similarly the idea that koans, essentially non-sensical word puzzle constructs meant to frustrate the discursive mind into a sudden leap beyond into pure experiential/intuitive mind, are probably more of a roadblock than a tool. I prefer to walk around the wall than to bang my head into it until it comes down.
WBraun

climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
What's really interesting is Ron Anderson understands and gets it completely.

The fools that all scream incessantly that Ron is stupid are the ones who don't get it and are clueless.

It goes right over the top of em.

Instead they do the same thing they always accuse Ron of doing.

Ron is actually a lot more intelligent than these guys .....

Intelligence is far different than smart.

These guys here try to be all smart.

But have no good intelligence.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 23, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
There's a really interesting editorial in the New York Times about the after life but not in the conventional sense.

The premise is that whether we believe in a metaphysical afterlife or not, we must as human beings believe in an afterlife of the human race.

To illustrate this he poses two questions. What if you knew you would live a long happy life and die peacefully in your sleep but an astroid would strike the earth a month later and eliminate all human life?

Conversely, imagine the same scenario but with human just younger than you all becoming in fertile so that you knew you were the last generation of humans on earth.

What would be the quality of your life and happiness in either of these two scenarios?

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/21/the-importance-of-the-afterlife-seriously/?hp

For that matter, have you ever heard of a belief in the after life in a metaphysical sense that did not involve other intelligent life?

And for those evolution - only folks, do you think animals would suffer knowing they were the last generation or would they even recognize that they were?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
well, I'm only good to 5.12d, so if it's 5.13 ! I'm out..
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 23, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
Intelligence I'll leave up to the repetitive duck, but my hypothesis is that a demon is driving the discursive mind of Largo and the demon is fed by duck Braun... ;o)
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 23, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
It seems certain that someday the human race will reach its end and with that end comes the end of humanity's many conceptions of God. Oh well.

But some things are doubtless nearly eternal: number, numerical relationships, Platonic forms, the physics of existing things. The Pythagorean Theorem will still be here as a relationship when all of humanity is gone. Tis Strange.

Perhaps these things are God, but, of course, they aren't going to buy you a Mercedes Benz.

When you think of the ridiculously tiny speck this planet is within an inconceivable structure and number of galaxies it's hard to imagine the demise of the human race as particularly important... unless I'm included in that demise of course.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 23, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
What if you knew you would live a long happy life and die peacefully in your sleep but an asteroid would strike the earth a month later and eliminate all human life?

Approaching the big sleep brings a keener sense that they're all "gonna die" too, eventually. So I'd be sad to have to miss the fireball with those I cared about most, but just like I'm sad that I'll be gone when my kids are old. Like being escorted out of the theater before the movie ends. And so we find happiness where we can.

Conversely, imagine the same scenario but with human just younger than you all becoming in fertile so that you knew you were the last generation of humans on earth.

I think David Bowie covered this one:


Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 23, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
The idea that you will, through discursive "instruction", gain access to the non-discursive state, is comical to me.


That's as screwy as Marlow speaking for all mankind with his "we're not interested," while purporting that I am flogging something other than an open invitation to listen, as opposed to thinking about it and drawing yet another daft conclusion based on . . . guessing once more.

The clear thing is to notice how the discursive has a personality, and it takes crazy offense at any attempt to work around it. All of these rants from El Cap to Marlow-San are examples of the discursive working entirely on it's own. There is no conscious entity directing these missives, rather the discursive is on autopilot. Entirely. Consciousness in the regards required a person to be in contact with the opposite of the discursive, and then to consciously chose which one to voice, or a blend of both. Otherwise we have no choice but to go with the prominent energy or sub-personality.

But no, Elcap. Teaching meditation is not the same as teaching metal shop, so you're description ddoes not wash. What's more, the discursive and non-discursive are meant to compliment each other. It's not all of one and none of the other, which is all or nothing thinking, ie, "thought distortion."

But verily, you never answered the question per your koan training. You have very strong opinions per this material, and I'm curious what experiences you've had relative to the topics discussed that led you to your beliefs.

Now we expect the Marlow's of this planet to spin in the corner, grinding on the ideas and notions and concepts like a spider monkey furiously wanking, then based on that preposterous exercise, to make sweeping and totally unconscious pronouncements. Others we might expect some little empirical and experiential evidence or anecdotal proof lest we might surmise you were merely guessing once more.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 23, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Largo

Some of us are not interested and I think even the most duck un-intelligent one's - like Marlow, has already a few years ago gotten a firm grip of what you're selling - or the invitation as you want to label it.

And as you see, I think you have no choice other than continuing repeating your few points and insults (the invitation) - you know: no choice = the demons driving your discursive mind...


And Marlow feeling "crazy offense" - Largo: You are projecting again... read your last post...:

"Now we expect the Marlow's of this planet to spin in the corner, grinding on the ideas and notions and concepts like a spider monkey furiously wanking, then based on that preposterous exercise, to make sweeping and totally unconscious pronouncements."

;o)
Messages 16181 - 16200 of total 22654 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews