Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 19, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
Stupid is, as stupid does!

" life is like a box of chocolates. You pick one, but you don't know what you got till you bight in!"

Can you you give me a picture of Forrest?
He's a savior!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
Walk with Jesus
Walk with Jesus
Credit: Dr. F.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 20, 2013 - 01:32am PT
Can you you give me a picture of Forrest?

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 20, 2013 - 02:13am PT
I believe you refer to my comment implying that I am not considered concrete and serious by people who know me?

No, no, no. Not at all. Gosh no. I said (and asked of you) to what extent you do not see the world as concrete and serious? This is not about you (but could be); it's about all objects in the world. Do you see them as concrete? Do you see any issue in the world as serious?

As for the other things, please noticed that I asked, that I asked what your memory recalled, and that I might be mistaken. I'm open to anything, MH2. Honestly, I question all "things." I don't think there are really things to think about (even this).

This is not to say that I don't take you at your word or that I don't think you are sincere.

Hey, I'm just a lowly nothing here. I have no beliefs, I question everything, and I'm wondering about even those thoughts now and then. The worst thing I can do is to take any of my own sense of spirituality seriously. If I do, then I'm in real trouble. (And that trouble consists of another concept.)

You know, taking Emptiness at full face is not an easy thing to do. Doing it is like letting go to some hold just above a whirling whirlpool.

The ego is the subtlest of entities. It is all the more ferocious and cunning when you get on to it.

Be well.
MH2

climber
Sep 20, 2013 - 11:00am PT
I question everything

That will keep you busy a while.
MH2

climber
Sep 20, 2013 - 11:01am PT
where, if anywhere, do yo believe that the numbers no longer apply?

Seems if I told you, which I have, that you will have forgotten by tomorrow.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 20, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
Seems if I told you, which I have, that you will have forgotten by tomorrow.


Look at it this way. If you look at what we are driving at here as an event in time, then indeed, said event will be forgotten by tomorrow, if not sooner. But once you step up to process thinking, you can start to appreciate that the fundamental aspect of consciousness is nondiscursive and entirely ungraspable.

For instance, ask yourself what kinds of non-discursive experiences you have? Maybe the experience itself of thrashing up Cream, in Yosemite Valley, a particularly stout off width crack, will strike you as a non-discursive experience. Or perhaps listening to Bill Evans on the piano, or in Fruity's case, watching Bart Simpson and Gomer Pyle reruns.

You can, or course, put works and discursively work over Cream, Bill Evans and even Bart Simpson (Gomer Pyle - not so much).

But what happens when you start mind training, and begin witnessing the mind, with the accent on witnessing ("arguably the most essential spiritual practice"). Slowly, consciousness becomes aware of the discursive mind (and in later stages of itself), creating a clear and necessary space between the two.

After sufficient practice, when the distinction between ourselves and discursive mind is established, we get better at this witnessing and we won’t even have an "I am wittnessing" thought-form, or interpretation of said witnessing. We will just be aware, present, conscious, either witnessing the mind without labeling our observations or residing in your own stillness.

These experiences are the first signs of transcending the discursive "monkey" mind. The experiences of pure witnessing itself, as opposed to what is witnessed and the descriptions thereof, are not only beyond discursive thought but are themselves ungraspable because in the most tangible way possible, there is "No Thing" there. The witness is unborn.

Just notice how fast your discursive mind wants to jump out of witnessing and get to grinding again. That's why they call mind training a "practice." You're nudging it into areas it does not naturally go.

JL


Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 20, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
Repetitive discursive hair-splitting navel-gazing... ;o) Must serve some function in life...
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 20, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
"The experiences of pure witnessing itself, as opposed to what is witnessed and the descriptions thereof, are not only beyond discursive thought but are themselves ungraspable because in the most tangible way possible, there is "No Thing" there. The witness is unborn."


Seems to regress infinitely begging the question who/what is the observer (witness) and who/what is the observed. If the mind is observing itself then how can it be anything but two minds and why isn't the observer mind just as susceptible to "monkey" stuff? It would seem that all thought is discursive of a kind even when it is non-thought. Who realizes enlightenment if there is no one there? If the witnessing one is no thing then witnessing itself is in the strictest sense "unrealized."
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 20, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
I'm forthwith reviving my theory that non-discursive disciplines, if over- indulged in, gradually conditions the mind to incrementally decouple from objects, thoughts ,and discrete entities, and , finally, from the normal sensory calibrations of the brain itself to the external world. This condition eventually renders the over-meditator prone to an essentially artificial disassociative disorder.

Such a disassociation from natural (discursive) awareness is similar to changing the tempo on a musical piece. A chronic over-meditator would be like a timpani player in an orchestra pounding out Beethoven's 5th , first movement, in andante instead of allegro con brio.

Moral of the story: don't overdo it guys, alright.

Now , go on, get outta here.


jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 20, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
Where you lose you way here MH2 . . .

These experiences are the first signs of transcending the discursive "monkey" mind

Oh the condescension of it all! We are lost sheep who cannot find our way to higher consciousness.

Religion advocates: how does this relate to being "born again?"

Just curious.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 20, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
The wonky thing is that no matter how we phrase it, the discursive will balk. I said it is tremendously jealous, so any talk about being transcended will evoke spectacular resistance by those who have not gotten some separation and believe they ARE their discursive minds.

But verily, NO ONE can be bothered to find out for their own selves, believing, perhaps Ward's latest howler: ". . . the over-meditator is prone to an essentially artificial disassociative disorder."

Can you start to get some feel for how all of our systems are inherently against ever doing the work, while firing salvos at me form suggesting you might want to look at the process for yourself.

Or maybe just "think" about it for another decade as the train vanishes in the distance . . .

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 20, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
I'm just saying, be cool , don't overdo it
Take this dude--- you and I both know he's in for the sunburn of his life and doesn't even realize it.
He'll be in pain all the rest of the weekend, or what's left of it.
Where's his guru then, huh?
Credit: Ward Trotter
WBraun

climber
Sep 20, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
Ward Trotter only listens to his duality run mind.

It's a run away horse and he's the rider with no reins .......
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 20, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
Who realizes enlightenment if there is no one there?


Exactly.

If the witnessing one is no thing then witnessing itself is in the strictest sense "unrealized."

It might seem so, logically. However witnessing alone happens all the time: it's called seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, etc.

When thought is no longer present, people don't go unconscious. They remain conscious but just not thinking about objects that are posited all around them.

No "I," no perceiver, right? If there is no "I," there cannot be any objects the "I" could perceive. All that would be left subjectively would be perception.

"Without an "I" or objects to perceive, how can there be perception at all?"

There can, and is, perception when there is no discursive mind creating interpretations of sight, smell, touch, hearing, taste, or even other thoughts.

Some people claim a similar experience while "being in the zone" in sports, and they attest to a sense what some people call, "mindfulness." Mindfulness is not having a full mind as one would usually think of fullness. It's an empty mind, where "being" if so fully engaged that there is no room for anything else (like thought, or at least thought that is taken seriously or concretely). There is just an unending flow, like being in a river. Things come and they go.

As for realization and enlightenment, forgetaboutit. Those are just ideas . . . words that are placeholders for something that there are no accurate descriptions for.

For the record, you're right: mind cannot observe itself anymore than eyes can see themselves. In practice, what seems to happen is, as the "I" and objects begin to decouple from awareness (they start to fall away, or become less serious or concrete), there is a kind of wobbliness or shudder as the witness questions itself for an instant, and then the two (subject and object) dissolve. Then there is no longer a witness, but just being. Some adepts refer to that being as "the witness." That "being" (natural pristine awareness) is described as timeless, placeless, and without circumstance. If you like labels, it's a gerund--a verb without a subject or object.

Between every thought and another thought is that natural state. But it happens to most for only milliseconds. Hence, the potential value of sitting still and quietly just watching the display of what is essentially just your mind.
MH2

climber
Sep 20, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
Good posts, JL and MikeL.

I can handle condescension.

I hope you catch my drift when I say that I am reluctant to talk numbers with people whose minds have touched infinity.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 20, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Nice insight, Mike.

Know that the discursive mind and what Voice Dialogue called the "protector/Controler" part of our ego self is so reluctant that it is almost always the case that you have to sort of negotiate with the discursive to ever let it go. An interesting method involving just this is called Big Mind, and you can google this and find out for yourself via videos. It's pretty powerful material.

JL

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 20, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Ward Trotter only listens to his duality run mind.

wBraun may be a lot of things but poor judge of character he is not.

However , his view is too obscured to fully understand where my mind really is.

sort of negotiate with the discursive to ever let it go.

That an individual would ever be required to "negotiate" within his own mind is clear proof of the disassociation that I alluded to earlier.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 20, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
It seems to me that Mike talks about a mild and accessible (and enticing) version of the more severe experience JL advocates. Those moments when I sit and look out over the high prairie, letting all thought fade away and merely experiencing, are a delight. And I've been doing this in one setting or another since I was a child. But I'm not curious enough to subject myself to the rigors of the more advanced state. That dang discursive mind acting up again, "I" suppose.

But I am still curious about JL's awakening and the Christian born again . . . are they similar? Speak up Bible People! What do you think? I realize very few if any have had both experiences, but if you have had one and have thought about the other your words could be informative.

Or not.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 20, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
Ward, the delusion that "we" are one totally intregrated self is a pretty easy one to get clear on, but at the deepest level it is (at the outset) the discursive afraid of being abandoned.

This article is pretty good on making clear the diversity of selves in each of us, an how to embrace them non-judgementally. It will be easier if you give up on the idea that people are guessing about this stuff.

http://delos-inc.com/articles/Embracing_All_Our_Selves.pdf

JL

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