Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 18, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Meditation isn't my problem solver, thinking is.

Or education is. Or awareness-raising is. Or negotiation is. Or focus is. Or letting go is. Or hard work is. Or training (practice, practice, practice) is. Or discipline is. Or attitude is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly a "believer" in the art of training the mind. In regard to ALL the items mentioned above.

Note that the (currently nameless) "art of training the mind" covers a great deal more than "meditation" as normally conceived or defined.

Now I could understand a thread with 1000 plus posts concerning the art of training the mind. And probably find it interesting, too. Esp if it didn't go all woo-woo on us.
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
Esp if it didn't go all woo-woo on us.


Yeah just keep sticking to your sterile mundane so called scientific dogma that 100 blind guys in the room all agree on.

That they are blind.

The 100 guys in your room thru observation and theory all agree that they are blind and peer review that they can't see.

One guy enters the room who's not blind and all the lab coats start screaming "No One Knows" and freak out and kill him.

Now you're all safe again in your little world.

Unfortunately ...

They never tested "that there is a third eye"

Stupid mundane material scientists who kill everything that doesn't fit in their tiny limited brain ......
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 18, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 18, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
Stupid mundane material scientists who kill everything that doesn't fit in their tiny limited brain ......

Good heavens, WB, I think you need an attitude adjustment!

Mad Scientist by Roberto Campus
Mad Scientist by Roberto Campus
Credit: jogill
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Largo
sorry if I went over the line, of course I meant no ill will.
Maybe you can post a synopsis of what you are saying
that us unenlightened can understand.
And why your point of view makes the question, if there is God or not invalid.

Because I still feel that is the most fundamental question that remains.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Sep 18, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
Attention-deficit issues? Anxiety or relaxation problems? Adult-onset existential depression
Just like high fructose corn syrup, above are the elements of Amerikan nonsense brainwash and toxic crap (for body and mind)--in this case "quack terminology" (usually followed by advice to "see a psychologist" or "take medications"). Oh man, the things you hear in this country...they can't even be translated. Hold on with your stupid meditation crap, western "science" is talking!
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Sep 18, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
Aughh, she's at it again. :(

How naive if not vulgar to the eyes of any design engineer, esp any who's passionate about his field or work.

Wow, full of misogynist s@###.

It's not likely there're actual NON-MEDIOCRE "scientits and engineers" in this discussion. Let's brag about us engineers how special we are!! and superior...
Lol "design engineer"...is this a major now?
I've seen some "product design" and "industrial design" "engineers" ;)))
Got to love the claims that engineering is art, haha.

tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Sep 18, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Science breaks things down into bits. Art and music and meditation construct a wholistic view based on many different bits and pieces put together in a new way.My conclusion is we'll never share the same perspective because we use our brains in fundamentally different ways.

And anyway, everyone is gunna die, eventually! Science, hoslistic or "design engineering". And there's nuthing ya can do about this.


Science is analytical in nature (solving, not constructing). Engineer creates things using science, logic as a basis; artist creates things based on emotions, sensations, dreams. Both use imagination and creative process, but basis is different. Meditation does not translate mental imagery and sensations into physical representation. Yes, fundamentally different.
Anyway, you forgot "philosophy"

But whatever philosophy, science, engineering or art...we're gonna die and meet out maker, eventually, in one or another form. And a scientist will not add a minute to their individual life time, unless fate prescribed so.

Engineer can design and artist can make art only because the maker engineered/created them this way, allowing for this. :)
In other words, you "create" anything only cause it says so in yo specs. And you'll never fully know your specs, during life time on Earth.

I believe that all moments of every one's life are predetermined, and all aspects of scientific process/research are predetermined activities, with illusion that something new is being discovered--predetermined full chain, for whatever next few thousands of years it's going to last (then, humankind will go off the face of earth. And there will be no science, or art, as there'll be no human mind to perceive or hold them. Then, universe will shrink into non-existence...and there'll be no room for science--or even supertopo pages to type...or even one piece of human dna left...tell me "science" is powerful :)

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 18, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
but who's to say that all those supposedly higher evolved meditative consciousness's proclaimed benefits are not equally being achieved by strong Discursive intellects?

me, thats who
-


The challenge is that the discursive believes it can "know" anything it can grock onto. But it cannot grock onto the whole, because the discursive is part of the whole and we can't look at the whole, which includes the looker, so we can only be present with it and see what arises. This is a vastly different kind of perspective that absolutely vexes the discursive, and the frustration can be intensified by subtle tricks like koans and so forth.

Basically, one of the first delusions to go is that the fruit of meditation is equally available to the discursive - which is like expecting to see the north pole by looking due south. The discursive believes it can do anything, that's why you have to start fiddling with awareness and focus so you can see first hand how the discursive works - and doesn't work. Then there's no argument or overstating our limitations. Every perspective is limited in some way. And when you learn how to transcend your perspectives you can start your own religion.

JL
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Sep 18, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
With no disrespect towards science and engineering (even though it's worth to note that many "scientists" despise engineers, this especially being applicable towards mathematicians who teach at universities)--my own educations being in math and engineering, this being a profession--got to say....since childhood through my 20s I had been blessed with visitations from supreme being, appearing to me in a few different forms, that, among other things, had taken to me to where eternity lies--where I was shown a glimpse of all past, present and future and experienced infinity, eternity, serenity of the non-material, etc...I'm telling you, after experiencing all that, the "science" appears to be like white foam at the shore of a big, big ocean :) and you can't see the ocean, all at once. But may be one day you will.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
"scientists" despise engineers,

Where do you get this BS
You make as much sense as Splitter
God saved you? blessed by visitations of a supreme being??
Did you take photos, what did he look like, did he speak English?
What kind of drugs where you on?, are you sure you didn't just make up this whole thing? or dreamt it. because there is Big Difference between reality and fantasy.

what kind of proof do you have that God (or supreme beings) even exists????
None, you just think God saved you.
maybe you should think again, and leave out the fairy tales.

Scientists love engineers, fact
they are complementary to each other
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Sep 18, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
There're frequently disputes about pure mathematics being inferior (or superior) to engineering, where each side defends ultimate superiority of their occupation, sometimes resulting in bitterness. In particular, some mathematicians resent engineers being paid higher than them for "inferior" activity that stems from mathematics, to begin with. Engineers sometimes feel that pure mathematicians live in the clouds and don't create anything practically useful, while being somewhat arrogant.
Kind of like arrogant trad climber may resent sport climbing.

The rest of your nonsense needs not to be addressed. Sorry :)
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 18, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
The challenge is that the discursive believes it can "know" anything it can grock onto


a wrong, and frankly arrogant statement said with such certainty because it is ludicrous to say that a rational thinking discursive human believes they can "know" anything they can "grock" onto

no one claimed that other than you right now, JL

for example: A Meditative person believes that they "get it" and are privy to deeper
calm and personal spirituality than those who don't practice such inner reflection

such people are so weak and unsure of themselves that they cannot stop putting down other people for basing their life's decisions on such meaningless "data" as their own
"experiences"

see? I can talk down to those who irritate me, I can speak with a veiled air of superiority

and IF I chose to do, I would be wrong to do so, because nothing I said above is true

but I would do it anyway, over and over and over, because .......who knows why




tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Sep 18, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. "
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 18, 2013 - 10:58pm PT

Now I could understand a thread with 1000 plus posts concerning the art of training the mind.

Training the mind in say for instance, math. Starting at the beginning with addition it's a relatively easy step by step procedure in a positive linear progression. This could be said about even the most advanced mathematics. And definetly this is good exercise for the mind
in its continuation of adding to its sum. And keeping the mind focused on one truth and searching for the next truth. Also numbers are an Exquisite pointing tool. These are all good for exercise and communication.

But what good is this to the soul?

Now take a mind exercise like, "love your brother as yourself". How does your brain resonate with that theory? Or better yet, "love your enemy, and if he hits you on your left cheek, turn and allow him to hit the right also". Before your emotions jump in. First allow your brain to wrestle this over. Because isn't this Truely an exercise in mind over matter? Even when the truth and facts line up to condemn someone. When we are able to shun the logic with compassion and bestow forgiveness upon the condemned. Isn't the Truth gained here worth more than all the gold in Dubai?

If one looks close the bible is the ultimate mind training manual.
Three Cheers for Woo-Woo!!!
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Sep 18, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
Modern non-religious humankind reminds of a teenager who got out without parents' supervision for the first time and is drinking/doing drugs feeling all-powerful...trashing the earth, via means of science and engineering, in case of humankind. Devolving into a fat nasty hedonistic pig. In the sea of mind poisons, lewdness, media brainwash, advertisements, internet garbage, western non-culture pouring over the world--one may find belief being the last sane and safe haven for soul.

I grew up atheist, where religious expression of any kind was illegal. This society no longer exists on Earth--perhaps by the very will it denied, while it predicted eternal existence for itself. Modern pseudo-free society that promotes human vices, consumption, excessive secularism, immorality, destruction of family will follow...just a matter of time. The incredible lies they promote to make people believe they're "free"...while their actual freedom is mostly in choosing one kind of consumer goods over another or buying pre-packaged philosophies and identities.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 18, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
^^^ Hallelujah!! But boy ur gonna get bashed here by the ones defending this as scientific advancement.

where each side defends ultimate superiority of their occupation, sometimes resulting in bitterness.

This describes both DrF and Norton. They are confined by this emotion into a box of knowledge by which only they know. That's why they can't even understand their own negativity. Assimilation is futile! They are Borg!
MH2

climber
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:10am PT
Riley said

My friend and climbing partner Mh2 asked what impermanence is?
Impermanence is reality.


You are a great person, Riley. I know that because I met you. When I meet and deal with someone face-to-face I can get past a lot of the nonsense that seems to come with the discussions among strangers on this forum.

HOWEVER

I did not actually ask what impermanence is. Please believe me that a 64-and-a-half year-old has an inkling.




And in that vein,


Jan said


Meanwhile, I'm glad I used the comparison of meditaters to artists and musicians as immediately the scientifically oriented responses illustrated the difference in perspectives. While quick to point out that they were not prejudiced against art and music, the responders missed the point in my estimation, by immediately nit picking logical inconsistencies and trying to break my statements into small bits that could then be further dissected.


I guess you are talking about jgill or me? Did either of us say we are not prejudiced against art and music? I know I didn't. You said that scientists and engineers consider meditation useless. It doesn't seem like nit-picking to ask about the basis of that statement.



MikeL said


But what would your life look like if you experienced impermanence in every thing you are and did? Nothing could be concrete or serious.


My life would look the same. According to those who know me, at least.



and JL said


The discursive believes it can do anything,


Another example of how people do not listen, do not understand, or misrepresent.




People who meditate are clearly not free of rigid thinking.
WBraun

climber
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:16am PT
Tioga = very intelligent.

Dr F = failed again .......
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 19, 2013 - 01:06am PT
Every perspective is limited in some way. And when you learn how to transcend your perspectives you can start your own religion.

Or become dictator of the world.
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