Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 15961 - 15980 of total 22787 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:01am PT
Ward wrote: I have no idea what question is supposed to be asked ,and frankly could care less.


The "question" as discussed was any question you had, whatsoever, about your subjective/experiential life. I suspect that "you have no idea what question" you are supposed to ask youself because you are rather in the dark per what your life actually is, beyond a symbolic representation of it as expressed in words of numbers.

How would you know otherwise when, by your own admission, you could "frankly care less" about your own experience. Rather sad to see it expressed so bluntly, and you must wonder what sustains folks marrooned in what could only be considered a kind of existential no-man's land of indiference (which is the opposite of love).

It makes me regret I ever chided Ward in the firt instance, to whom I have no ill will towards and was just fooling away time being thorny and ridiculous. I take it all back. I hope you can find something ihn your experince worth caring about. For real.

Maybe this can stoke the old embers, Ward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB1V--gv3ZE

JL

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:19am PT
because you are rather in the dark per what your life actually is,

Whewf, John, dude, that's frank!

I think I was fumbling around and totally in the dark until I was 35, and only then was it that I began to ask what was what.

We don't live long enough to become wise. Life is just too short, and getting over our own socialization, institutionalization, education is soooo challenging.

We don't even know What We Think about our lives until after we've gotten a few decades under out belt.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 23, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Wu-wei is non-action action

Well, I probably should ponder that, but I don't think I will. Looks like it's a school of thought that has been around for a long time. Bon Voyage on your internal journeys.

Rich Shiffrin and I didn't discuss these things when I took him climbing in S. Colorado a few years back. His daughter enjoyed the experience as well. I'll see if I can find a photo or two. He's a pretty bright guy and was an enthusiastic novice climber at the time.

Let's see, your sample of, what, three to five posters provides adequate proof that, generally speaking, scientists believe that all "conceivable" problems can be solved by science? It's the word "conceivable" that triggered my response. OK, how can I fly to the ends of the universe in less than one second? Hmmmm . . . Assuming there are angels, how can I discover how many of them can dance on the tip of a pin? Hmmmm . . .

Just joking. I'm sure there are supporters of science that do indeed believe it can solve all problems. I'm just not one of them.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 23, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
I'm still in the dark about my life, it's just that my eyes have started to adjust a little. A very little. As I have said all along, life in the round is ungraspable.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 23, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
John G. I should have said that folks believed that science could explain anything / everything in time. I shouldn't have said solve any conceivable problem. There is a difference. My error.

(Largo, I like how you phrased that.)
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 23, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
Good post, JL.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2013 - 05:02pm PT

generally speaking, scientists believe that all "conceivable" problems can be solved by science? It's the word "conceivable" that triggered my response.

What sparks my response is the word "problem". What problems? Arent The only problems scientists have are the ones they invent? What is science? Isn't it just the study of the natural world and learning how to manipulate it? All the answers to the problems are already there. Scientist only have to discover them.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 23, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
Michael Shermer, today...
"Limitations of neuroscience does not mean mind and brain are separate. They are one and the same. No Brain No Mind."


Sound familiar?

.....

Good post, JL.

You gotta be kidding.

.....

life in the round is ungraspable.

Life in the full is ungraspable.

No duh.
WBraun

climber
Jun 23, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
When there's no intelligence then the mind is wasted and stupid.

Just like the HFCS usual monkey analysis ......
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
It makes me regret I ever chided Ward in the firt instance, to whom I have no ill will towards and was just fooling away time being thorny and ridiculous. I take it all back. I hope you can find something ihn your experince worth caring about. For real.

This could be a good class in inlightenment. From two directions..

Sometimes the right banter will make the roster stand up and crow. Other times it'll drive the hens to roost.

Some climbers still have to nail there way up the Nose. While others free climb it.
As a guide, it's your job to know what rack to bring

All climbers gotta take whippers once in awhile or their not pushing their ability to meet their goals... Cept' for the puzzies hangin at the deli Talk'in shite. They need to be coddled and pampered.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2013 - 05:57pm PT

"Limitations of neuroscience does not mean mind and brain are separate. They are one and the same. No Brain No Mind."

But no mind doesn't mean no brain.

The limitation is that the brain doesn't know the mind. (it's a tool in the shed. Just like the kidney.) and for most people the mind doesn't know the brain. (considering most people take such poor care of their body's.)

Experiment; take the brain out of Jan and put it in Johns body. Do you think John would start wearing dresses?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 23, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Rock of Ages, Cleft for Me

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
let me hide myself in thee;
let the water and the blood,
from thy wounded side which flowed,
be of sin the double cure;
save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labors of my hands
can fulfill thy law's commands;
could my zeal no respite know,
could my tears forever flow,
all for sin could not atone;
thou must save, and thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
simply to the cross I cling;
naked, come to thee for dress;
helpless, look to thee for grace;
foul, I to the fountain fly;
wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
when mine eyes shall close in death,
when I soar to worlds unknown,
see thee on thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
let me hide myself in thee.





“His Robes for Mine”

“His robes for mine: O wonderful exchange!
Clothed in my sin, Christ suffered ‘neath God’s rage.
Draped in His righteousness, I’m justified.
In Christ I live, for in my place He died.

“I cling to Christ, and marvel at the cost:
Jesus forsaken, God estranged from God.
Bought by such love, my life is not my own.
My praise-my all-shall be for Christ alone.

“His robes for mine: what cause have I for dread?
God’s daunting Law Christ mastered in my stead.
Faultless I stand with righteous works not mine,
Saved by my Lord’s vicarious death and life.

“His robes for mine: God’s justice is appeased.
Jesus is crushed, and thus the Father’s pleased.
Christ drank God’s wrath on sin, then cried “‘Tis done!”
Sin’s wage is paid; propitiation won.

“I cling to Christ, and marvel at the cost:
Jesus forsaken, God estranged from God.
Bought by such love, my life is not my own.
My praise-my all-shall be for Christ alone.

“His robes for mine: such anguish none can know.
Christ, God’s beloved, condemned as though His foe.
He, as though I, accursed and left alone;
I, as though He, embraced and welcomed home!”

“I cling to Christ, and marvel at the cost:
Jesus forsaken, God estranged from God.
Bought by such love, my life is not my own.
My praise-my all-shall be for Christ alone.


by Chris Anderson and Greg Habegger





Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 23, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
"Limitations of neuroscience does not mean mind and brain are separate. They are one and the same. No Brain No Mind."


Most of the people doing experiential adventures would agree that mind and brain are not seperate, and go one better, and say that nothing is seperate, including forms sans minds to reify them, which is what part of the Copenhagan interpretation of QM has always said (I am told).

However the comment that mind and brain are "one and the same" has never been explained with any precision, and whoppers such as, "mind is what the brain does," don't deserve serious consideration - we can easily see why. If the "same" belief could hold up to empirical testing, we'd only need to try and explain one of our experiences (what us humans often do) by way of neurobiological means. Quite naturally we cannot cotton to such an absurd exercise because we don't eant to hear break downs about objective functioning when we're asking what the girl looked like or how the pie tasted, which is the life we actually lead. As Mike pointed out, we don't live on the level of objective functioning.

One of the coolest mysteries about this process is appreciated by way of the "dial" thought experiment. We can see aspects of our consciousness fade or get "dialed" off when we add too much alcohol, fall asleep, get drugged up for surgury, get shot in the head, or die. But the process of "dialing up" mind, happens so incrimentally that any threshold, if there is one, is a subtle one indeed. But this too is a vast oversimplication.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 23, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
One of the coolest mysteries about this process is...

Which is why so many are drawn to neuroscience in the first place.

Why don't you try rowing against the tide of tradition (if not bronze age misconception) for a change. Use your fancy way with words and tropes to aid the science model. Or to come to grips with it. As it ain't so bad. Just a suggestion.

As it stands, you're only a Deepak Chopra of the climbing world.

"Deepak is an expert in using the maximum amount of words to say nothing of significance."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wi2IC6e5DUY

"whoppers such as, "mind is what the brain does," don't deserve serious consideration - we can easily see why."

Verily, how vain and fatuous this comment is from the vantage point of the 21st century and neuroscience. Really, who are you trying to impress, the gobes and blublos? Ever seriously ask yourself this question before you post? Seriously.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2013 - 08:12pm PT


As it stands, you're only a Deepak Chopra of the climbing world.

Wuz that humour? Arr,Arr! Funny, I think he's saying alot with alittle words.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
"whoppers such as, "mind is what the brain does," don't deserve serious consideration - we can easily see why."

Whooper? It's the major problem I see with evolutionist. Besides I think MikeL is closer to knowing god than Largo. Only IMO. MikeL is seeking. Largo is denying.


Verily

Where didyou get this word? HAHAHA! Still laughing from the last post


Exit: Seriously Fruity, look deeper.. Past the YouTube screen
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 23, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
Fruity, as usual, you ducked the hard question of resolving how the brain and mind, objective and subjective, heads and tails, night and day, are "the same things." The language used admits that even you, my fruitus, understand that both aspects exist. Now how about them being selfsame? My suspicion judging by your glossing over nuance is that you are out of your depth on anything outside of undergrad engineering models, but perhaps I have that wrong. I haven't seen much to suggest you grasp the experiential since you keep reverting back to objective functiong whenever the subject is broached. Like someone asking how the car drives and some dufus with ninety pens in his pocket, wearing highwater jeans, wing tips and white socks, keep trotting out blueprints.

What's more, "mind is what the brains does," begs the question: What does mind "do" that is different than brain? And if your answer is, "nothing," how do you tell the difference between them?

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 23, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
Blue blocker is a nasty dude....Hahahaha.
You don't want to fork with him. Hahaha
WBraun

climber
Jun 23, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
21st century and neuroscience.

Just plain dull matter.

Fruitcake couldn't think his way out of paper bag.

This why he always tries to dazzle with flowery words to impress fools.

We're not stupid fools like you though.

We don't don't fall for this kind of fluff.

Come back when you really have something of substance ......
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2013 - 09:37pm PT

But the process of "dialing up" mind, happens so incrimentally that any threshold, if there is one, is a subtle one indeed. But this too is a vast oversimplication.

Just because there's an MRI lighing up with pretty colors when the patient is asked if he likes flowers. From what we "preceive" is the emotional part of the brain. Doesn't mean the brain is giving the answer. MAYBE that part of the brain is RECIEVING the answer?
From; MAYBE, the conscious?

Don't fork with me! LOL

BIGGEST moon of the century tonight!!! Don't miss it!
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