Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
by teaching you what has already been learned.

And most of that crucial learning takes place before the individual leaves home for school.

It is carried out by the parents , or others, who are motivated by Love.

If that scenario fails then the consequences for society and the individual is usually tragic.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 12, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Philosophy has invariably been murky

I took a senior level course in philosophy at the U of GA in 1958 and was bewildered when reading directly several of the philosophers we studied - until the professor suggested I read commentary by others before trying to decipher the masters. It worked.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 12, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
This is an ideal . . .


i·de·al
1. A conception of something in its absolute perfection.
2. One that is regarded as a standard or model of perfection or excellence.
3. An ultimate object of endeavor; a goal.
4. An honorable or worthy principle or aim.

. . . concept that excludes a significant portion of the world that humans actually find themselves in and is about as useful as a grocery bag without groceries.

And here we go again with what is real and what is not real. What is real, say you and your supporters, is what consensual reality says it is. What consensual reality says is real is what is indicated by labels, concepts, models, and abstractions. (There should be no contention with this statement.)

In order to catapult the primacy of subjective experience into a preferred mainstay of truth we have to ignore both the central predicament and defining nature of human life---those things we share in our collective world-- our civilization, our technologies, our philosophies, our mutual survival as a social species.


Says you. You are saying that the mainstay of truth is consensual reality. That reality, you say, is survival and what survival is reliant upon. Your concept of truth appears to be animalistic, primitive. Is that your sense of who and what you / we are? It would appear from this and earlier writing that you have no great view of Being. Being and existence appears to be dog eat dog, and clawing one's way to the top of a heap or detritus.

Subjective experience , experience in general, is not clear and magically cleansed of murkiness--- quite the contrary. Solitary human experience is intrinsically replete with misunderstanding, maladjustments ,self-deception, egoism, and delusion. A source of much grief. These maladies are sometimes superimposed by others upon the individual, but many are self-originating and seem to be inherent in the natural organic condition of human brain functioning.

You may be speaking for yourself, Ward. It's not what I find or see.

I suggest that you change your mind. Were you to achieve that, you might find your world changing right in front of your eyes.

What you believe is what you see.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 12, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

...ideal or perfect?
MH2

climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 12:29am PT
What is real, say you and your supporters, is what consensual reality says it is. What consensual reality says is real is what is indicated by labels, concepts, models, and abstractions.

Could you say that another way, please? What do you mean when you say that agreed-upon reality is indicated by labels, etc.? Do you mean simply that we must communicate somehow if we are to look for agreement on what happens and why? The need for some kind of language seems unavoidable.

Do you mean to imply that reality IS labels, concepts, models, and abstractions?

Reality is big. It includes hallucinations, illusions, delusions, nightmares, deceptions, misinterpretations, misunderstandings, etc., but it doesn't have a voice that tells us directly what is real and what isn't. Reality only has phenomena that can be observed. Some events are suitable for discussion among interested observers and for finding reproducible patterns and distilling those patterns into theory which is testable. Not all of reality can be described or understood, so no one can say what reality IS, other than EVERYTHING, but that doesn't mean that certain parts of reality are not well-described and well-understood.
jstan

climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 01:26am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJZQwy9dvE

Many facets of Dennett's presentation are creative. Some of them have been mentioned here, but there is one which has not. He does not approach the question as to why intelligent thoughtful people declare there is a god. He does not claim

they are stupid or

they are just evil.

He goes through the possible real life causes for this and considers each in some detail. I leave it to you to listen to the talk and I won't presume to summarize something this good and this carefully constructed.

After listening to it I would like your comments on an important possible hypothesis with which I was left.

Americans believe our country is on the verge of becoming a failed state. States fail when the people lose sight of the thing that binds them all together. In our case it is our constitution and the proximate causes for the war for independence as stated in the declaration of independence.

In a failed state one must always be prepared for mortal combat. You can trust no one. In Rwanda you must always carry a machette.

Do we not have something very like this being advocated in the US?
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 13, 2013 - 05:32am PT
Education will continue to be driven primarily by draconian economic competition and not the restrained Utopianism of educators in a few western democracies currently with the money to blow on creativity agendas.

If that were true, kids would know 3 different languages, how to write code, as well as basic family planning by middle school. As it is, what kids learn is based on the dictates of the lowest common denominator:

If my kid's too dumb to learn this, then it shouldn't be taught at all.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 13, 2013 - 05:41am PT
I'm afraid you're right. In my first month back in this country I have been appalled at the lack of work ethic and low educational level of young people in the service industries. It has taken me up to half a dozen repeats to get any simple thing done correctly. I haven't had to do this much repetition and double checking since I lived in Nepal.
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 13, 2013 - 07:06am PT
Americans believe our country is on the verge of becoming a failed state. States fail when the people lose sight of the thing that binds them all together. In our case it is our constitution and the proximate causes for the war for independence as stated in the declaration of independence.

In a failed state one must always be prepared for mortal combat. You can trust no one. In Rwanda you must always carry a machette.

It's WHITE people who are in danger of becoming a "Failed State". That's why they're engaged in mortal combat for the right to carry guns into schools and restaurants, pray at legislative sessions, and teach their kids creation "science".

You CAN'T trust anyone... school boards are loaded with wackos who also happen to be your neighbors. That old, white guy who just pulled out of his driveway? He packs heat and keeps loaded handguns on his TV, nightstand, and fridge.

If you've ever canvassed for votes during an election, you'll find neighbors who are shocked to discover their neighbors are right wing nut-jobs, and won't put candidate signs in their yards for fear of angering them.

When Hispanics re-discover Ricky Riccardo to be their conservative ideal, and Blacks realize that it's cool to be smart, they'll join the Asians and bury Stupid White Guy in an unmarked grave.


Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
If that were true, kids would know 3 different languages, how to write code, as well as basic family planning by middle school. As it is, what kids learn is based on the dictates of the lowest common denominator:

Three things here:

A) You took my comment out of the context it was intended . I was stressing the general aims of the current educational establishment and society in general as opposed to the idealistic aims of Sir Ken Robinson
B) you have failed to appreciate that you are making a separate point , namely, the poor state of education in being able to carry out its mandate . In and of itself this does not disprove my point that education is designed and geared towards economic outcomes.
C) The examples you noted ,with perhaps the exception of languages, have nothing directly to do with a general education for the aim of producing economically fit citizens.
Family planning?
Writing code?

Get outta here.

Your comments in your subsequent post are racially and politically charged nonsense and somewhat creepily debased ,and in any case are thoroughly worthless as replies to Jstan's entreaty.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 13, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
If our present education system is geared toward economics then we truly are on the road to disaster and jstan is an optimist. One of the major problems it seems is that no one in the U.S. has a clue about the kind of competition we're up against in Asia. Instead we continually invoke past glories which every day are further in the past.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Our Republicans are hoping to degrade our education system and ecomonics to the point that we become the slave labor for Asia
Since they have no control over what Asia does, we are their last hope.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 13, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Our Republicans are hoping to degrade our education system and ecomonics to the point that we become the slave labor for Asia

Interesting.

I guess your DEM Gov cutting 48% of the states edu budget thus resulting in CA dropping down to 49th in school Spending Nation wide, thoroughly enhances the caliber and quality of public K-12 education.

Got it.

http://www.edsource.org/today/2013/california-drops-to-49th-in-school-spending-in-annual-ed-week-report/25379#.UjNa4cY3uCk
sullly

Trad climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
Commonwealth Club SF, Oct. 14. Yessss!


UPCOMING EVENT
Living in the Material World: The Future of the Humanities


Mon, Oct 14 2013 - 6:00pm
Tyler Stovall, Dean, Undergraduate Division, College of Letters & Science, UC Berkeley
Ralph Lewin, President and CEO, Cal Humanities
Katie McDonough, Humanities and Arts Initiatives Coordinator, Office of
the Dean, School of Humanities and Sciences, Stanford University

Material culture in the last two centuries has often overshadowed the pursuit of subtler forms of happiness and understanding grouped under the title Humanities. Recently even the great universities, the last strongholds of liberal education, have been struggling to define the value of critical thinking versus career building. Where will subtler pursuits fit within the cultural onslaught of materialism?

MLF: HUMANITIES
Location: SF Club Office
Time: 5:30 p.m. networking reception, 6 p.m. program
Cost: $20 non-members, MEMBERS FREE, $7 students (with valid ID)
Program Organizer: George Hammond
Also know: In association with Humanities West

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 13, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Where will subtler pursuits fit within the cultural onslaught of materialism?

I don't know but my advice - don't ask Leon Weitseltier. ;)

By the way, have you ever noticed how "materialism" in economics gives "materialism" in science (in biology and physics) a bad name. Observations: (1) Language, ambiguity thereof, sucks! (2) Your opponents in debates are always ready and eager to conjoin the two - so the koodies of one infect the other.

Ever the materialist in biology, anyone who knows me knows I am far far afield of "materialism" in career or economics.

It just so happens the whole universe is made of... wait for it... material.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
One of the major problems it seems is that no one in the U.S. has a clue about the kind of competition we're up against in Asia. Instead we continually invoke past glories which every day are further in the pas

True.
I should have been clearer in characterizing the state of education in the west as being increasingly geared towards draconian economic competition due to much greater challenge from Asia and elsewhere in the foreseeable future. (The development of the " Common Core" is a ready example of this.) http://www.corestandards.org/
In any case this all more or less bolsters my general point about the ultimate fate of creativity and humanities based curricula. If such curricula are at the bottom now just imagine where they'll be in the future.

Take the simplified analogy of a Hunter/gatherer tribe. When there is sparse competition and plenty of local resources our tribe has the luxury of sitting around donating more time and effort into making little trinkets, amulets, and other expression of creative art.
When a competing tribe moves in to challenge their local hegemony suddenly there is less time for such rarefied pursuits--- as the original inhabitants mobilize to face the new threatening challenge .
WBraun

climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
It just so happens the whole universe is made of... wait for it... material.


Actually it's completely spiritual in the absolute sense.

When you're under the clutches of duality then due to poor fund of knowledge of the absolute whole you "believe" it's completely material.

It never is nor was.

It's none other than the inferior energy of God.

There is his superior energy also that the modern so called scientists completely miss .....
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
Werner gets it.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
Actually it's completely spiritual in the absolute sense.

Or it's not.

Only a weak mind sees things as absolute.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
Believe the smoking duck-god WBraun...
... or not... ;o)
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