Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 21, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
WTF?

If I came upon a bridge and wanted to know how and why it was built the way it was built, I would indeed have to crawl all over it to figure it out, which would be a damn hefty job. That is reductionism.

Out of all of the data that I pick in a single day, it is a small part of the whole. I'm zoned in on particular strata, because I have to move fast and produce. I could get distracted and spend a lifetime working depositional environments of the thousand uphole zones that aren't economic. I have to focus. I understand the processes of deposition and structural effects on the other rocks, but they aren't of any economic significance.

I have no clue as to what questions I ducked. Please list them like this:

1) question number one:

2) question number two:

You characterize science in an odd way.

As I said, and this is important, I don't need to know how a watch works to tell what time it is.

Science is such a monstrous topic that nobody can be an expert on the entire universe. Consider all of the applied science. Even a guy like Edison had a limited number of discoveries and inventions.

If you want to understand thermonuclear weapons, ask Ed. If you want to know how oil and gas are found, ask me. I have never claimed to know everything. That is a ludicrous idea.

Ask me anything. I'll do my best, but my knowledge is limited, as is yours. You discount material, which is matter. This is the content of the entire universe, so I do not understand your problem with those who are interested in matter. You actually attack it, which is sort of like stabbing a lake with a sword. There is no point.
WBraun

climber
Jun 21, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
Science is such a monstrous topic that nobody can be an expert on the entire universe.


God is the Supreme expert on everything period.

Man is stupid period until God reveals knowledge.

Not even a blade of grass can move until God himself lets it move ........
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 21, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Credit: Ward Trotter

"Far out Man"

So when Trotter breaks out his absurd generalizations about the subjective work, and lumps me of all people in with Tiny Tim and the Right Reverend Moon, I privately bust out laughing.

That line is going in my memoirs.

Hahahaha

Credit: Ward Trotter
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 21, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Why not just respond to what people say rather than embellish? Perhaps it is the writer in you being colorful? Humor is okay, but it is better if we laugh with each other and not at each other.

This is just how Largo treats us. I have been complaining about it for a week.

Ok, John. How would you go about describing the dynamics of the atmosphere of Jupiter?



Credit: BASE104
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 21, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
How would you go about understanding the processes that led to these meander belts of the Mississippi River delta?

Credit: BASE104
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 21, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
This is as close to the Neuru as I ever got LOL.

Credit: Largo
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 21, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
I always picture in my mind some poor dufus witgh fifty pens in his pocket scrutinizing the out side of the concert hall and scribbling in a notebook when the door is right there and it's open

OK, he's not going to change. I think when I met JL years ago he had dropped out of Claremont (Christian Graduate School). He has told us about his conversations with Chuck Wilts, but nothing about any further formal studies apart from Renzai. I suspect that is his background, but he can correct me if I am wrong. On the other hand few of us more or less in the sciences have had formal Renzai training.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 21, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
This is just how Largo treats us. I have been complaining about it for a week.

I don't feel like that . Even if the Largoid is mean and nasty I don't feel slighted or threatened.

I like the dude. I like Werner too. I like all the Nehru dudes. They are solid .

I like Largo because he looks like my Uncle Leon. ( may he rest in peace)

Werner looks like a German tank field commander .

As a matter of fact, I like all the denizens of this thread, and I respect them. ( God help me)

LOL

Lighten up.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 21, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
BRAVO! Largo BRAVO!

I just caught up to ur 11:11am post. And it was MAGNIFICENT!

I'll read it again, then BASES rebuttal. HeHe!

First, I gotta take a wiz.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 21, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
This is as close to the Neuru as I ever got LOL.

That's close enough!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 21, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
I never thought it was required to list my scholatsic record but if you have to know, or care, I graduated undergraduate with a double major - lit and philosophy, and got departmental honors for the later. I went to CGS in fine arts but mostly took philosophy courses at the School of Theology. I didn't "drop out," but bailed at the masters level, disappointing a lot of profs who invested loads of time and energy on me and presumed I was going to be an academic, which required a PhD. But I wanted to travel and have experiences and after going to college till I was twenty six I was burned out and sick of being so broke. Twenty years later I did an MFT program in clinical psych, not to be a therapist (not interested), but because I missed school and was always interested in psychology, and Antioch had a great and varied staff and I could do it at night.

So far as dissing scientists, or discursive and analytical thinking, you have it entirely wrong if you belive I don't have a privledged take on this approach and in some wise have put myself outside that camp. Nothing is further from the truth. For example, take the following illustration:

Credit: Largo


Before I wrote the first Anchor book in 1989, there was little formal investigation into anchoring in any studied, systematic way, the protocols were not codified, named, or even understood, and while there was a massivve amount of info out there, much of it was contradictory and misleading. Over the years I tackled this quagmire, sorted through 1,000s of pages of enginering reports and test data, codified systems, pulled protocols out of my ass, as well as many of the names for procedures and technical set ups, and put into fairly accessible terms the remarkably complex factors involved in the roped safety system.

With help from various companies, we conducted tests and I had specialists like Rick Goldstone work up mathmatical models and statistical wizards like Callie Rennison do anaylsis on the data and then plowed in and worked up the practical names, set ups and soultions for the whole business of rope management. Again, there was a massive amount of info out there but it had never been collected, analyzed and distilled into practical rules of thumb. And wuwu descriptions would not suffice. It had to be tangible stuff. This was such a nighemare of variables that at times it felt impossible. What's more, I had to get it right, or people would die because in many cases they had nothing to go on per anchors save for my books.

So given that background, it has always amazed me to be accused of not grasping the process and value of objectifying physical things like anchor arrays and falling climbers. I'be been doing that work in spades for decades. And if the same kind of approach would have worked per consciousness, you better believe I would have tried it. If fact I did - all those years doing neurofeedback and so forth.

So when I say that a purely objective aproach to consciousness has limitations, it's not all because I am lacking the analytical wherewithal to understand what science does, or how it works.

JL
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 21, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
Way too fuking complicated.

But hey - thats wall climbing for ya!
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 21, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
Not only does he strongly resemble my Uncle Leon (before he died) but I failed to mention some of his FAs are my favorite routes. These two instantly leap to mind:

Dappled Mare

Ten Karat Gold ( even though it was rap-bolted....LOL)

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 21, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
Mr. Long,
Is this proof of urs, soul ly for ur concern of your peers' safety?
Or was it in fact, for the money?
Or, was it to prove that you could be analytical?

Jus Wonder'in? Great stuff though!!



Edit: I did buy all ur "How To" books by the way. Duecee sudjested it.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 21, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
Hiya, from Wisconsin.

We should find common ground

That would be difficult to do for so many reasons that are all too obvious here.

I'm sorry, but there are times when common ground will not serve. You and others here seem to be perfectly fine with " . . . everything we know is only some kind of approximation . . , " science represents the best man has to offer, everyone is pretty impressed with the achievements of science, science promises to solve every problem that can be conceived, and folks here believe in the process of science with no reservation. (Do I have this right for the most part?)

For me, those characteristics lead to the worst possible position. "Close" and "pretty darned good" lead to a certain sense of accuracy and security, a sense of omnipotence, they emphasize materialistic objectives, and to me they are signs of complacency. (They also create beliefs.)

I'm happy to get along and not make waves, though.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 21, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
Ok, .... How would you go about describing the dynamics of the atmosphere of Jupiter?

Does it really matter in the scope of the Big Bicture? But then if you do not ACCEPT the Big Picture, of course it would. Cus that is what this science is all about. Trying in way too complicated manner, to understand instead of just accepting the Big Picture.

Science has a big time issue with accepting things for what they are. It always struggles to induce the human element into it all. Ego. All human manifested ego. Nothing more.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 21, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
Science has a big time issue with accepting things for what they are. It always struggles to induce the human element into it all. Ego. All human manifested ego. Nothing more.

Wha?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 22, 2013 - 04:58am PT
John 5:22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.


photo not found
Missing photo ID#307936


John 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 06:07am PT
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57590253/deaf-boy-with-auditory-brain-stem-implant-stunned-after-hearing-dad-for-first-time/

Wonderful story. It might seem to readers a story about the triumph of technology over the unfair effects of Nature. I see the inherent wonder of experience (its open-endedness, its spontaneity, its absence of graspability, its unity), if analysis can be put aside. All experience is like this (amazing), but people have been trained and institutionalized to normalize their experiences into mundanity.

There is no difference other than this between the typical, objective-oriented, analytical, mental-rational view, and a more spiritual view of reality. To the extent that one lives in a mental-rational worldview and believes in its concreteness, one misses the wonder. (Look how serious and concrete the world seems to be.) Yet the wonder of reality is all around, everywhere, in everything, unendingly. It's all there is.

This is true wu-wu; it comes from wu-wei.



EDIT: Look at the remarkable things that this woman now hears.

http://www.oprah.com/own-lost-and-found/Life-Changers-Woman-Hears-for-the-First-Time-in-10-Years-Video
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