Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 15881 - 15900 of total 22805 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
contemporary capitalism is in no position to renounce the mafia. Because it is not the mafia that has transformed itself into a modern capitalist enterprise, it is capitalism that has transformed itself into a mafia.

The type of grotesque over-generalization from the imaginary world of those whose only alternative to capitalism is a non-existent fantasy world in which no one owns anything, or at worse an elitist state run totalitarian system in which goods are dispensed based upon political affiliations , and kept in place by fear of reeducation camps .
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 3, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Here's an interesting story:

Myths Over Miami
Captured on South Beach, Satan later escaped. His demons and the horrible Bloody Mary are now killing people. God has fled. Avenging angels hide out in the Everglades. And other tales from children in Dade's homeless shelters.


http://www.miaminewtimes.com/1997-06-05/news/myths-over-miami/

Folktales are usually an inheritance from family or homeland. But what if you are a child enduring a continual, grueling, dangerous journey? No adult can steel such a child against the outcast's fate: the endless slurs and snubs, the threats, the fear. What these determined children do is snatch dark and bright fragments of Halloween fables, TV news, and candy-colored Bible-story leaflets from street-corner preachers, and like birds building a nest from scraps, weave their own myths. The "secret stories" are carefully guarded knowledge, never shared with older siblings or parents for fear of being ridiculed -- or spanked for blasphemy. But their accounts of an exiled God who cannot or will not respond to human pleas as his angels wage war with Hell is, to shelter children, a plausible explanation for having no safe home, and one that engages them in an epic clash.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 3, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Ward

You say:
"The type of grotesque over-generalization from the imaginary world of those whose only alternative to capitalism is a non-existent fantasy world in which no one owns anything, or at worse an elitist state run totalitarian system in which goods are dispensed based upon political affiliations , and kept in place by fear of reeducation camps"

Answer:
The article above concerns Italy and the Camorra of Naples, and the situation in Mexico. Read the books, the documentation. You see, you are the one overgeneralizing and distorting reality. I don't know your agenda for doing so, but your judgement is in this case incredibly weak. Maybe you are ideologically distorted and unable to see differences... Give it an honest try. If you cannot make it... well then you're lost...

Another weak side of capitalism - this time in America:
I think the American people have every reason to be concerned about the banks. The banks have used "imaginary or fake products" and information asymmetry to cheat a lot of Americans, haven't they? And then, at least at first, maybe still, claimed that individual Americans have made individual choices. Freedom, isn't that what it's called in America? Freedom to be cheated based on asymmetrical information. Are you of the opinion that regulation and control of banks isn't needed?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
When I hear these kinds of statements, I am reminded of Tim McVeigh. He is still very much forward in the memory of this state.

That's because the grasp and extent of your knowledge is hopelessly parochial ,self-centered, and uninformed.
Anyone who has followed my comments on this thread and elsewhere knows I am not the kind of individual you have referenced.

Are you equating the broad based philosophical defense of capitalism and democracy and the criticism of totalitarian socialism with a deranged boogeyman in your state who killed scores of people with a fertilizer bomb?

Don't answer that question---it might provoke one of those boring long-winded useless posts that inevitably concludes with your personal experiences discovering an oil well somewhere.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 3, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
Ward.

You're the one talking in over-generalizing abstractions now. Was it the word boring you used...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 3, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
BASE,

what was the ppm of CO2 in the cretaceous. Thanks.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
You're the one talking in over-generalizing abstractions now. Was it the word boring you used...

WTF?

Listen " Marlowe" --or whatever you call yourself-- it wasn't I who dredged up some relatively obscure account of mafia corruption somewhere to over-generalize that into a poorly based and irrational non sequitur indictment of capitalism.
And because of my pointing this out I am suddenly Tim McVeigh with an "agenda"
Rich.
WBraun

climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
More living entities that any computer number can hold have seen and know God exists.

6 or seven stupid fools on an internet thread can't see him proves they are stupid.

There's no argument to be made.

It's now finalized and finished.

The deniers are just plain stupid period. :-)

This thread will now self destruct due to the truth being revealed.

Ya deniers can all go home now keep drooling ...... :-)
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Sep 3, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
Off hand, I think it was 800 to 1000ppm

I'm not sure, though. I read up on it last week but am busy right now.

Now let me tell you about a terrific oil well that I found.....
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 3, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
Their folklore casts them as comrades-in-arms, regardless of ethnicity (the secret stories are told and cherished by white, black, and Latin children), for the homeless youngsters see themselves as allies of the outgunned yet valiant angels in their battle against shared spiritual adversaries. For them the secret stories do more than explain the mystifying universe of the homeless; they impose meaning upon it.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
I think the American people have every reason to be concerned about the banks. The banks have used "imaginary or fake products" and information asymmetry to cheat a lot of Americans, haven't they? And then, at least at first, maybe still, claimed that individual Americans have made individual choices. Freedom, isn't that what it's called in America? Freedom to be cheated based on asymmetrical information. Are you of the opinion that regulation and control of banks isn't needed?

Look, most Americans are "concerned" about the banks when they have reason to seek them out to spill some dough into their hands. Otherwise they could give a rats ass about "information asymmetry" ---and WTF is that, some nickel word meant to describe a dime concept? Some bullshit term cooked up by one of these political websites eager to replace a few thieving banks with even more additional thieving government bureaucrats.

Crooked banks have been around as long as crooked governments. The difference today is that the crookedness is used to justify smarmy little government bureaucrats-- who couldn't make it in the real world-- getting a piece of the action., all in the name of 'social' justice and altruism.
Meanwhile it's all capitalism's fault and "freedom" is a promise only little weenie lawyer/politicians can secure by their uncannily unselfish capacity to sniff out "imaginary or fake products"
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Sep 3, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
Ward,

Sorry I said that. It was out of line and I had just been reading the nuts on the Climate Change thread. This thread has always had good behavior. I'll stay on topic if you will.

What's the topic, Largo?

Hee hee...

I shall nuke the offensive post.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Sep 3, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
I did see a really common social phenomenon going on in the climate change thread:

That would be going out there and cherry picking data. Only use data that reinforces a dogmatic position, while ignoring data which disagrees. That is one of the no-no's of the scientific method.

You really have to be able to step back and look around sometimes. If you don't, then truth is irrelevant. Truth is chosen, therefore the definition of truth evaporates.

One guy keeps posting these graphs and saying crazy stuff. I clicked on the link and it took me to the Real Science website.

Check it out. This is how a lot of people get their information these days. With the internet, anyone can pose as an expert or authority..

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
Sorry I said that. It was out of line and I had just been reading the nuts on the Climate Change thread. This thread has always had good behavior. I'll stay on topic if you will.

Alright. Don't worry about it.
And you can go on discovering new wells.

Hey several years ago I had a friend who supervised a small crew of guys who at the time were obtaining sound readings from the area in and around Paso Robles, CA. He begged me to come up from LA and join them to enliven the discourse.
They had several trucks ( I got one stuck) that pulled these sound detectors around about the size of a small UHaul trailer . One group would shoot a pulse into the ground and another would pick it up some vector distance away, store it , and later my buddy would send that data to the main office in Colorado.
All day we wondered over the central CA hills having lavish hilltop picnics and shooting sound waves into the ground and scaring the hell out of the local cattle. At night we clandestinely attended several hell-raising biker parties in town.
Next day , hungover , we would fan out over the hills again, and my friend would try to convince me, to no avail, to do the same thing in Mexico the next month.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 3, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
What's the topic, Largo?


Wherever it goes, I suppose.

I had to reel myself in on this stuff. It can kindle like a crack high and I loose balance and start talking smack, which is fun to a point, like a roast or something, but the important issues get forgotten.

What I have started to learn from all of this wrangling to and fro is a practical approach on how to start framing the objective and subjective, objective and experiential respectively and in a balanced way. If you look at everyone from Zen Monks to a pop neuro-philosopher like Harris, they all have blind spots and indefensible positions at some level.

Only recently did I understand that we can never understand or know the limits of discursive reasoning by looking at physical phenomenon. You have to look at the mechanics of perception itself, how it works from the inside, from a POV not possible from without. More on this later.

JL
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Sep 3, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
Are you equating the broad based philosophical defense of capitalism and democracy and the criticism of totalitarian socialism

It's always one or the other..... But the fact is, totalitarian socialism didn't work and capitalism/democracy is on it's way out the door. Say hello to the new bosses: Corporate fascists and state capitalism.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
I say its Google Corporatism and Facebook Fascism, with a little Twitter Totalitarianism thrown in for good measure.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
I missed the love from this old crew..

MikeL, I really hope that your wife is well!
And everything with you is cool with school.


Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:12am PT
Scientists Use DNA to Assemble a Transistor from Graphene
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130906141918.htm
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
Marlow: " . . . overgeneralizing and distorting reality."

This suggests that something can be done with reality. . . that it can be overgeneralized, distorted, somehow made different than what it is. How could that be possible?

"Well, I have had this experience, and when I talk about it, then I can distort, overgeneralize, or make it into something different."

And that's where people go wrong. Having an experience is undeniable, complete, and total--whatever the experience is. A experience cannot be changed, enlarged (silly), amended, or made different than what it is. And it is always what it is.

It's when people start to refer to an experience, to talk about it, to model it, measure it, label it, put it into categories, that's when things go wrong. Not possible.

Experience is what it is, undeniably. But any thing "of," "for," "about' experience goes wrong because that somehow attempts to shoe-horn infinity into some form (a limitation).

Look at just anything, and look at it very closely: whatever it is, it is Weird. Indeed, there's nothing but weirdness everywhere. Everything is completely weird. Just look closely, systematically, carefully.

Let's say you were God. How would You make a universe? Well most people would do it like children play with blocks and toys. They just take elements and make little things and then bigger things and then bigger things, but they would always be using the same materials. There would be wooden blocks, for example. And if we were to look closely at the wood in the blocks, we would see more wood no matter how powerful of a mechanism that we could find.

But that's not at all what we find. We look at the block, and it looks like wood. Now we get a magnifying glass, and the wood no longer quite looks like wood. It looks like some kind of cloth. Then we get out a microscope, and the cloth looks like a set of huge craters and hills. The we would get out a electron microscope, and the substance we call wood would look Way Different yet. Then we would have to visualize by theory beyond that, and we would find molecules which would appear very different. Then we would go further down and we'd find atoms. Further down, and we'd find sub-atomic particles that are Way far apart from one another, and we would find our selves saying that most of 'what's there" is simply open space. And on and on into infinity. Things just get weirder and weirder. And at each level there are unsolved conundrums that supposedly the next level solves (ha ha).

Or you can go up (the other way) and find the same process of unfolding weirdness, nested within weirdness.

Everything is like that. Nothing is finally findable or graspable. Nothing finally resolves. You would think that the more information that you'd have about something, the clearer and more resolution you would find, but that's not what you do find. What you find is that things don't cohere. They diverge. Everything is spinning out of whack with everything else. There are no final lasting equilibriums; everything is in flux, moving, incoherent, and impermanent, and interdependent.

"Well, what about all the patterns? What about linearity? What about order, forms, cause and effect??"

None of that really exists, not when you look very closely and very carefully. What you find is patterns within unpatternesss, linearity within non-linearity, order within disorder, forms that are ungraspable (within emptiness), cause-and-effect as simply a way of talking. There is a great wealth of paradoxes, dilemmas, contradictions, unresolvabilities among all fields of study or practice.

There are only really two questions in the universe that demand attention: What the heck is really what, and what is actually going on? The so-called answer to the questions are one in the same: IT. What is what is what is going on.

The so-called form and structure of the universe is the most crazy thing that intelligence could devise. (And all of this only scratches the surface.) What sense does it make that at every level of analysis something absolutely new and infinite shows up--where there is no context, no benchmark reference points, no top or bottom, no edges?

How can that be?

Soooo, when any of you complain that capitalism, human nature, politics, economies, various subsystems in the world "aren't working out" (even those that are human), you might want to look a little closer at the consensual view of reality. It ain't what it appears to be. Not really.

Reality is confounding and unexplainable; it is limitless, timeless, spaceless, without context, and resolute without resolution (no one can do a damned thing with it). Everything in it is absolutely perfect. Everything is exactly where it is supposed to be. Not a hair in the entire universe is out of place. You are exactly where and who you must be. There are no problems. There are no solutions. Hell, there aren't even any questions. Look at any question long enough, and it will vanish.

But almost no one is really looking . . . because They Know.



BB: My wife is fine, but a funny thing happened on the way down the stairs to the ICU and out--she's come back differently. After almost 3 weeks, we think we are witnessing some kind of spiritual realization or transformation. It's been really weird for her. Her values are being reordered, some of her core beliefs are being challenged, and she is not quite the superwoman that she was before the accident. We have had the best times and talks since we first met, I think. Who knows if it will last? I'm pretty stoked about it all, but she's felt the rug pulled out from under her feet. Everything is great. Thanks for asking, pal.
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