Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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WBraun

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 11:22am PT
we've evolved from pond scum

Nope .... it's YOU that evolved from pond scum.

The rest of the intelligent life came from intelligent life itself ......
WBraun

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 11:40am PT
"The song that I will sing is an old song, so old that none knows who made it.

It has been handed down through generations and was taught to me when I was but a little lad.

It is now my own song. It belongs to me. This is a holy song (medicine-song), and great is its power.

The song tells how, as I sing, I go through the air to a holy place where Yusun (The Supreme Being) will give me power to do wonderful things.

I am surrounded by little clouds, and as I go through the air I change, becoming spirit only."

    Geronimo

Stupid modern white idiot killed the intelligent beings
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Aug 26, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
It's quoted on post 16839, fructose.

As for being a paranormalist, like any ist or ism, it would take having that as the center of one's belief system to be one. That would probably include thinking that the paranormal was more important than the physical world just as you think the natural world is more important than any other,and a religionist thinks religion is the most fundamental answer to life.

If I had to classify myself it would be as an anthropologist believing in humanism - both centered on the varieties of human experience - with science, religion, and the paranormal as interesting products of human existence. I agree with DMT, they are all products of culture. They also may or may not be phenomenon which exist independently in the universe or as a foundational element of it. Whether they do have an independent existence and on what it is based, is to me where the interesting questions lie.
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 26, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
what's your definition of "culture"?

Culture is what binds a people together, though I like to think of things like language, place, and customs that stretch back centuries, for our purposes here, though I know there are far more profound definitions. Hipsters, jocks, and rappers think that they've created 'culture', but these are just brands, products made for consumption, though our resident Romantic doesn't see it.

And, no.... no culture can survive without a reasoned approach to it's survival. Call it a scientific or empirical, whatever; successful Pacific islanders that saw overpopulation as a threat, bashed in the skulls of newborns. They didn't build Moas to their Gods. And that certainly didn't make them "Borgs", whatever the fuk that's supposed to mean.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 26, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
1) Body enhanced by high-tech muscle-specific gym equipment
2) Fake boobs supplied by an army of PhDs in chemistry
3) Tattoo provided by modern medical procedures
4) Vehicle supplied by millions of man years of R&D
5) Roads provided civil engineers
6) Double exposed, flash photo provided by Nobel laureates in physics
7) Transmission of said photo provided by .......hell, why bother


Not fake knockers - of that you may be sure LOL.

But the fact is, you cold take away all of the 1-7 extras and simply have a girl standing naked on a beach and the impact would be the same provided you were properly formed, something perhaps debatable with certain amongst the beaker boys. And they're all boys if you'll notice. The female side, which might add some little luster to the rock, is sadly and evidentaly missing.

The point is, no matter how you shake it, technology does not create culture. It can assist in it's delivery, but the seed for the song came from someone's tripe, not from a guitar.

When you try and reverse this pattern, in the form of sampling and remixing, note the dependence on "source material." The technician is simply rearranging the extant tunage by way of fancy knobs and pullies, as it were. Shuffling the deck, not minting the cards.

But we can all imagine a resident geek believing with all his heart and soul that the gadget, the reostat, the yardstick is the very totem of God, much as a person clings to the bible as the end-all source of truth. Both are driven by the same psychological drive to be "right," to know really and truly, and both "can prove it." Both are, at the psychological level, the selfsame folk.

JL

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 26, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
technology does not create culture.

You obviously don't own any Apple products.

You are completely incorrect. Humans use technology to create new culture all the time. Its happening all around you. There is virtually no aspect of our American culture that is not touched or shaped entirely, by technology. The cultural life of the modern town utterly depends upon technology.

DMT
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 26, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
But we can all imagine a resident geek believing with all his heart and soul that the gadget, the reostat, the yardstick is the very totem of God

The point is, no matter how you shake it, technology does not create culture

Stupid modern white idiot killed the intelligent beings


Jan, you proud of the company you keep?

.....

re: -isms, -ists

I'm an alpinist. (One of a dozen "-ists" with which I can probably identify.) Yet, alpinism is hardly the center of my life. Certainly -ist can also imply participant or advocate or fan. But whatever.

.....

No, doesn't surprise me a bit...
that United States now ranks 25th in math, 17th in science.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 26, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
You are completely incorrect. Humans use technology to create new culture all the time. Its happening all around you. There is virtually no aspect of our American culture that is not touched or shaped entirely, by technology


You forget: You need a conscious being to operate the technology. The operator is the creator, not "Hal."

So often we try and take consciousness out of the equation, leaving us believing in gearheads.

There is no part of a lawn that is not touched by the mower. But take the gardner out of the equation and the grass never gets cut.

It's just that simple, which is why so many of us miss it.

JL
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
I never confuse 'things' for science.

For what it's worth, your culture, as it were, has kept women out of science for far too long. Thankfully, that is changing, as is evidenced by awkward glances at ones own shoes in labs the world over .

In addition, entire cultures, in the distant past, from the middle-east to Asia have disappeared under the weight of commerce, because with it comes ideas, communication, and insights. Even you, of all people, should be aware of indigenous peoples whose ways of life have been irrevocably changed by even the simplest technology brought by trade, either directly or indirectly.

Don't you know this?
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
ut we can all imagine a resident geek believing with all his heart and soul that the gadget, the reostat, the yardstick is the very totem of God, much as a person clings to the bible as the end-all source of truth. Both are driven by the same psychological drive to be "right," to know really and truly, and both "can prove it." Both are, at the psychological level, the selfsame folk.

What nonsense....

Every answer yields eight more questions. You clearly understand nothing of the (human) mind.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
You forget: You need a conscious being to operate the technology. The operator is the creator, not "Hal."

I forgot nothing. You're not speaking to some illiterate here, I can process your words.

Two points:

1. A solo human has no culture, at all.
2. The social animals homo sapiens, have created tools. Whether by divine intervention, multi-'lives' memory or simple brain-power-creativity, its not really relevant. Culture, like morals, is built for humans, by humans, using the tools at our disposal.

Tools like Facebook and Supertopo, where in the case of ST a culture certainly extsts BECAUSE of the underlying technology.

Sliderule it all you want, shake a kumbayah stick over it, it changes nothing - humans build culture. And if humans use technology to build that culture, then technology does in fact create culture, much like trees create a house.

DMT
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Fort Mental-

I assume you are addressing me?

Remember that what is new technology to one group was still originated in the culture of another.History is full of indigenous people who could not adapt to new technology and culture and those that could, though often in ways that are mysterious to us. I think the Cargo Cults of the South Pacific are some of the most interesting and creative such adaptations myself.

As to who will survive in the long run, I will always bet on the less technological - those who can provide for themselves when the electricity goes out.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
Dingus-

I'm not sure what you mean by a solo human has no culture at all? We now know that fetuses can recognize certain tunes in the womb and respond to them more positively after birth than to others they have not heard before.

The only humans who come close to not having a culture are ferrel children who were abandoned at birth and raised by animals of which there are very few. Even then you can argue that they have the culture of the monkeys or dogs among whom they were raised as it is not genetically programmed that kids walk on all fours and howl at the moon for example.

Generally though, we have already established on this thread that homo sapiens culture is established by language which has been around for 50,000-100,000 years.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
I mean exactly what I said - a solitary human has no culture. I didn't qualify the statement. Culture is an invention of society. No society, no culture, full stop.

If that society uses technology then that technology will be used to construct culture. Fire-containment would be a perfect example of a culture-shaping technology.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
HFCS -- "United States now ranks 25th in math, 17th in science."

And last place in intelligence.

Stooopid idiots waring and killing all over the world ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 26, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
So I happen to be reading this book in evolutionary psych right now on differences, e.g., between gender, and how these differences are rooted mainly in tradeoffs. Primed by this, it's made me wonder recently how much jlo's ability with rhetoric, words, some ideas too, but mostly rhetoric and words - fascinating to all for sure for their color, uniqueness, angle (in some ways, not unlike Weeg, btw) - brings with it tradeoffs.

Interestingly, this same source says...
"One of the most important traits that make us human is our ability to create and sustain giant social systems that can evolve and adapt and compete against each other. These systems are called culture."

Finally,
"cultures find men more useful than women for certain tasks."

And not just for opening jars or killing bugs, either.

.....

we have already established on this thread

There's that funny queer phrasing again, if we've "already established" anything on this thread it's a dozen things apart from the items you've mentioned.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 26, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
You might get you head around it this way: People on this list love to play reductionists. That means if we had all the data, including random and chaotic elements that make it impossible for us to predict the future, we could nevertheless reverse engineer any person, place or thing to antecedent "causes." Any piece of technology we can reverse engineer back to a dude. Technology did not arise from Nature, but from us, and we are in charge of it's use, ergo we create what technology does and does not do. We pull the trigger. Not till AI comes along that can pull it's own trigger, sans previous programming from us, in any shape or form, then we can never say technology creates anything.

We can blame technology for polluting ancient culture, but if you remove man's part, in making and deciminating the sh#t in the first place, no harm, no foul. We have nobody but ourselves to blame for this, and trying to shut it off on machines with no minds is akin so saying global warming is a scientific creation.

These are old arguments, really, that have been decided long ago.

JL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 26, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
And you complain about others' brick walls....

DMT

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 26, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
People on this list love to play reductionists.

People on this list ARE reductionists. (There, that's better.)

Your rookie mistake - glaring to any hardcore science junkie - is that you're mixing (mechanistic) reduction with data (info) and prediction, which only makes a mess of it. Back to the studies, you ol' duffer.

A basic grasp of the fundamentals makes it clear.

.....

You might get you head around it this way...

If you arranged your atoms point for point with those of Miley Cyrus (presumably with some to spare) at time t=0, then you would be Miley Cyrus at time t=0.

That is reduction. Those who accept reduction are reductionists. Acceptance of, or belief in, reduction is reductionism.

I am a reduction-ist. I am an evolution-ist. I am a natural-ist. I am a mechan-ist. All in the context of The Scientific Story (say, for clarity sake, as presented by Carl Sagan). All acquired through a hard-won science education. Proud!
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