Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:46am PT

John Bradshaw: Cat Sense

John Bradshaw's fascinating feline study traces the history of the cat from ancient god through persecution to today's most favoured cuddly pal


From the history of cats:

"As John Bradshaw writes in his exceptionally thorough new study of feline nature, Cat Sense: "Cats now face possibly more hostility than at any time during the last two centuries." And Bradshaw knows his stuff about cat persecution in the past. In fact, as fascinating as Cat Sense will be for anyone wanting to understand their cat more deeply, feline lovers of a squeamish nature should be wary of its early chapters, in which we learn for just how long, and to what horrific lengths, the cats of the world have been the victims of superstition and cruelty.

The last really bad time to be a cat was the 1600s, when, along with falling foul of the Salem witch trials and the self-appointed Witchfinder General Matthew Hopkins, they were persecuted by the church of Rome, which gave its official sanction towards cruelty towards cats. In the middle ages, many European cities observed a feast-day custom of suspending cats in a basket over a large fire, in the belief that their screams would ward off evil spirits. As recently as 1817, live cats were thrown ritualistically from the bell tower in Ypres (they now use stuffed toys instead) and in 1648 Louis XIV lit and danced in front of a bonfire in Paris whose prime purpose was to burn cats. Even the Egyptians might not have been quite as nice to cats as we think: on one hand, the members of an Egyptian household would often shave off their eyebrows in tribute to a cat who had died of natural causes, but on the other, many of their mummified cats had been killed by ritualistic strangulation."

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/aug/25/cat-sense-john-bradshaw-review
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2013 - 11:47am PT
Seriously, a vote for more min. wage. Is a vote for more government, more laws, more restrictions, more price inflation, more poverty for the ones that even able to get a min. wage job! It's backwards thinking. There shouldnt be any min. to the wage.

This is purely idiotic, based on myths, and patently wrong
apparently just like the rest of your belief systems.

Raising the min. wage creates jobs, and raises the overall standard of living of the entire Nation. There have been numerous studies proving this to be true, and your belief as wrong.
Why would there be more Gov. with a higher min. wage?

Which Countries have no min. wage?, third world countries like Mexico and Somalia

What Countries have the highest Min. wage? The most economically successful countries with a healthy wealth distribution and high standard of living.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:52am PT
Child

"One rain-wet child on a rail fence
is better than ten angels in the Kingdom of Heaven."
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 25, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
With time, science, and by extension, commerce, will replace culture, and by extension, religion.


Science works in the service of culture (including the culture of mind), not the other way around.

If we were just left with the task of quantifying, as the ne plus ultra of existence, as prescribed above, we would have realized the digital dream of borgs.

For us human beings, sitting around a table, sans tunes, fine grub, some sense of transcendence, love, and all the frivolities of culture thrown on top, just sitting there grinding out equations that we could prove to ourselves were "right" - such a world as this could only be atractive to some dufus with fifty pens in his pockets, who never got picked for the kickball team and who couldn't get laid with a 1,000 dollar bill.

Not a world that many would care to live in, but if you want to closet yourself in a thought bubble, sans culture, have at it. Ain't nobody gonna come looking for you to share the misery - we can easily see why.

JL

A cultured look at Orion
A cultured look at Orion
Credit: Largo
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 25, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Science works in the service of culture (including the culture of mind), not the other way around.

If we were just left with the task of quantifying, as the ne plus ultra of existence, as prescribed above, we would have realized the digital dream of borgs.

For us human beings, sitting around a table, sans tunes, fine grub, some sense of transcendence, love, and all the frivolities of culture thrown on top, just sitting there grinding out equations that we could prove to ourselves were "right" - such a world as this could only be atractive to some dufus with fifty pens in his pockets, who never got picked for the kickball team and who couldn't get laid with a 1,000 dollar bill.

Not a world that many would care to live in, but if you want to closet yourself in a thought bubble, sans culture, have at it. Ain't nobody gonna come looking for you to share the misery - we can easily see why.

This is a poignant reminder that you actually understand little of the natural world around you and the "culture" of inquiry. Moreover, your mode of thinking has more in common with Romantic era English poets that it does with anyone living in a modern world.
Tell us more about how pocket protectors make you feel....
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Aug 25, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
Sorry I don't follow the logic here.

If engineers with pocket protectors were all the rage in our modern world and religion on the run, then why would this thread even exist?

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 25, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
your mode of thinking has more in common with Romantic era English poets that it does with anyone living in a modern world.


Really now. Well a died-in-the-wool empiricist like your own self might want to trot out your wonky social theories with people "living in the modern world."

Just walk up to anyone you meet on the streets and declare to them that science, and by extension, commerce, will in a few short years eliminate the need for all forms of culture as we know it. Music, art, dance, entertainment, sports, jazz, pinball, surfing, bull riding, opera, radio - all gone so we can - what, exactly? I guarantee you that this sad sac prescription will get no play, at all, with anyone who has a pulse, a girlfriend, a dog, a few CDs, a skateboard, a chalkbag, some sense of the transcendental, and a nose for rich viands. But a borg or replicant might find this "mode of thinking" attractive. But not the rest of us - not by a long shot, Homer.

Now go back to your abbacus while the rest of us do some living. I sometimes think that you duffers with the pocket protectors say ludicrous and unstudied whoppers like this because you got passed over in grade school for that dance with sweet Petunia, and it left you kinder sore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWGXt979yg

JL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 25, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
So its come down to pocket protectors?

'Clem, I'm gonna draw m'felt tip on ya, if you don't put that theory in the barn.'

'Flem I got god on m'side and a permanent marker here with your name all over it. I'm gunna mark you up!'

DMT
MH2

climber
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
Sorry I don't follow the logic here.

Are you Betty or Veronica?

Spock or Kirk?

HTH
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
As for insult hurling, Jan, you are alone among the Three Amigo's in keeping things civil and not characterizing an opposite point in a way that harms it..the strawman. JL has been doing it a lot.

I notice that I just don't approach understanding in the same way that some others do. I suppose it is because of the type of work that I do, but I need some evidence before I hop on a belief.

For instance, Dawkins is certainly no idiot, but some might call him an as#@&%e. I wasn't very impressed with him when I saw him speak.

Did anyone see the series about the life of Mohammed a few nights ago? It was very interesting. It is sort of like Mormonism, but cutting off heads and limbs is OK.

If you step back from one single religion and look at all of them equally, or with the same suspicious eye, then they all have some hard to swallow material.

Werner is the only one I know who chose a religion. The rest were nudged by either social setting or perhaps a missionary knocking on your door.

People want so hard to believe. I tell you, there are threads on this forum which are fascinating to watch. They show this process quite plainly.

So John, how do you know that you are not deceiving yourself? Werner?
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
how do you know that you are not deceiving yourself?

One must use the scientific method.

One must do like this and do like that and God appears.

Although God never ever had been out of sight to begin with.

Only to the foolish.

Scientifically do like this and do like that and God gives you your sight and intelligence back.

Simple.

Stupid people make everything complex and get lost .......
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
Norton wants so hard to believe he knows something.

30k years ago people lived an average 1000 years lifespan and were 1000 times more intelligent then today.

Stupid modern fools are just plain stupid and know very little if anything at all ....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 25, 2013 - 09:05pm PT

People want so hard to believe.

It's not that hard to believe when you've been provided evidence.

I might be dumb, but I ain't stupid.. and I ain't no wanker.

But I do know Jesus answers prayer!

That's all I'm try'in to say.

I did see the Muslim series on PBS. It was good on the history of Muhammad. But it didn't delve into the Koran much.

moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Aug 25, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
When I was a teenager I tried to hold on to my faith. I tried very hard but I have lost it. I wish I haven't.

An elusion can be a great thing if it helps you. Especially if you don't realise it is an elusion...

Religion is evil but faith is something to envy...
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
30k years ago people lived an average 1000 years lifespan and were 1000 times more intelligent then today.
and you know this how?

answer: he read it in a book.
WB's religion was completely derived from some books he read and some warm fuzzy feelings he had while climbing and meditating.

and obviously completely based on myths and fiction.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 25, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
Hi BASE, You might notice that when I fire back it's because some mugwump fired off a salvo at me. It's just part of the fun. And when someone lets fly a true howler we all know is total bollocks - like the idea that science will and should supplant culture - then such a piece of foolishness needs to be cut off at the pass, just as you might call out a fundy for believing gays are evil. The best way is to model a picture of culture that will win the ignoramus over, but on this list we can only shout.

You wrote: So John, how do you know that you are not deceiving yourself?

Deceiving myself about what? Insofar as I have asked you to take nothing on faith or believe anything whatsoever, what deception do you believe I am playing out on myself. We're all deceived at some level, but I think you have something specifically in mind.

Also, Harris is an as#@&%e but at a deeper level he is psychologically unconscious. Imagine him ever asking a question about something he does not know. Like Fruity, whatever Harris does not know he would consider unimportant lest he would know it already. Who has time for that, really? Too bad because Harris has some fine ideas, but when tinctured with such narcissism, the message gets lost in the blarny, IMO.

JL
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Aug 25, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
I am looking forward to meeting Herr Braun next month.

It will be enlightning fer sure!
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 26, 2013 - 03:38am PT
A cultured look at Orion
A cultured look at Orion
Credit: Largo

1) Body enhanced by high-tech muscle-specific gym equipment
2) Fake boobs supplied by an army of PhDs in chemistry
3) Tattoo provided by modern medical procedures
4) Vehicle supplied by millions of man years of R&D
5) Roads provided civil engineers
6) Double exposed, flash photo provided by Nobel laureates in physics
7) Transmission of said photo provided by .......hell, why bother

Thanks for the window into what you consider to be science working in the service of "culture". On a serious note, I'm shocked that you'd find that commerce supplanting culture to be a "howler". Shocked, I tell you, shocked!

(BTW... YOU said "in a few short years". This 'Mugwump' wrote, "In time..." But, whatever.)
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 26, 2013 - 10:00am PT
like the idea that science will and should supplant culture

Science is a product of culture. Its like saying the color orange will and should supplant the orange itself.

Can a culture exist without science? Yes, I'm pretty sure it can; our science certainly suggests is has been done so in the past. Pretty rude existences from what I can discern but I do not have Werner's vision of past races of humans.

Can science exist without culture? Absolutely not.

Do you get tired at tilting these windmills of the strawman, Don Largo?

Science is not trying to kill the culture that spawned it. That culture, though, seems bent on using that science to do the same.

Remember, science doesn't kill people - but guns do :-)

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 26, 2013 - 11:16am PT
FortMental, what's your definition of "culture"? I'd hate to think there could be a failure to communicate on this thread over mere definitions of words.

Let's take a moment here to remind our resident funnyboy JLo that many science junkies in today's world do not sport pocket protectors...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#153551


Jan, not sure what's happened here, where's your post you left on the missing climber thread, did you delete it? Anyhow, just how do YOU define "paranormalist" or "paranaturalist"? Don't you think it's fair to call a spade a spade in honest debate? I do. I'm a full-on naturalist, believing we've evolved from pond scum, believing we are mortal, we are born, live and die like every other creature on the planet, believing we are mechanistic through and through in terms of causality or causation, believing our mental lives and mental functions including first-person subjective experience arise from brain circuitry; but then again I know you enough by your many posts to know you're something more than a naturalist, believing MORE than this.

Our dreams are effects or reflections of brain operations and/or brain states, probably essential in some capacity to proper mindbrain functioning. They are not gateways or signs to an alternative or hidden universe, real as this one, or hints to a future any more than our imagination is. That's my understanding. Is it yours? That's my understanding - I find it useful, I find it reasonable, for getting on the world, for making sense of it, and last but not least, for building unity and supporting unity among like-minded nature, science and facts-loving people.

Harris is an as#@&%e ... Like Fruity ... tinctured with such narcissism...

Really, I think we know who narcissism incarnate is here, lol!
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