Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 15781 - 15800 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Aug 21, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
Parmenides, Heraclitus, and Zeno
http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/audio/parmenides-heraclitus-and-zeno2/
Are you the same person you were ten years ago? Or ten seconds ago? If you’re not, then who are you? While most of us don’t lose any sleep over such riddles, philosophers have long recognized the importance of these “questions of being.” In this lesson, discover the fundamentals of “being” and “becoming.”

From the series: The Consequences of Ideas

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 21, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
Ward

What is it you want to ask me?

Cheers
DMT
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Aug 24, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#317493

Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
By the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God,
With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us;
79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
To guide our feet into the way of peace.”

...WOW!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 24, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
All Cretins are liars...

-xeno

I don't know how many of you have read Gödel Escher Bach, An Eternal Golden Braid, but this whole thread needs to. It took me nigh a year to get through because Tom Cosgriff made me work the math problems.

That book is pretty damn cool, but the concepts are not intuitive at all.

Credit: BASE104
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 24, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
"Don't steal my sh1t"

-Epimenedes, the Cretan

Base....that picture appears as a puzzle that my kids and I put together when they were about 3 and 4 years old. It still hangs in their room despite their new lives at college. Anyway, it was a long time, figuratively speaking, before the image's "wrongness" snapped into focus for them. I've always used it as 'teaching moment' for describing how something can look correct, up close, yet be so wrong when viewed at a distance.

I don't know how many of you have read Gödel Escher Bach, An Eternal Golden Braid, but this whole thread needs to.

Largo could use the Clif Notes!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 24, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
I've always used it as 'teaching moment' for describing how something can look correct, up close, yet be so wrong when viewed at a distance.
-


This has been my song on this thread ad nauseum - that when our awareness is fused to discursive thoughts, when we are too close to them and have no distance to see otherwise, we are largely blind in many regards.

But I'm convinced now that people need to see this for themselves, of their own accord, and that trying to discursively talk them into trying is a fool's pursiut.

JL
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Aug 24, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
I'm convinced now that people need to see this for themselves, of their own accord, and that trying to discursively talk them into trying is a fool's pursiut.

Isn't this what the masters have been saying all along? And that most people have to go through experiences that are so painful or so out of the ordinary, that only then are they motivated to look beyond their normal world view? And that these motivations come from the emotional side of our being, not our discursive mind?

There also has to be an element of faith that is separate from discursive reason. Even among Buddhists one has to have faith that others have found relief from these sufferings and that there are methods that work.

A similar issue has arisen on the thread about the missing climber at Mammoth Lakes.Several of his friends have had similar dreams with the same symbols in them and one person who never knew him had a similar dream which they all discovered only by comparing notes on the thread. Predicatably some people have told them to use these symbols as clues from another dimension of mind/spirituality and others have told them tartly to stick to the known facts only. This debate will never end!


Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 24, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
Yeah DMT , I was wondering if you thought it was a good idea to refer to a dying man and his grieving neighbors as:

A weird tribe of inbred desert rats

I mean , even in a sort of harmless , light-hearted way--which I am guessing was the way you meant it.
Not a good choice of words.
Did I take it wrong??

Otherwise I have nothing against you personally.
No hard feelings.
In fact I was willing to forget the entire thing.

Thanks,
WT




Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 24, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
I thought about the Ascension, today...

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 24, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
I got the jesus in me?



DMT
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 24, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
But I'm convinced now that people need to see this for themselves, of their own accord, and that trying to discursively talk them into trying is a fool's pursiut.

It's because you simply don't know what you're talking about. And I mean that figuratively and literally. This is a consequence of the limitations of language; that with which you think with, that with which you communicate, and with which your listener thinks. Not the least of the difficulties is the fundamnetal limitation of language to describe what you think you are saying. You can you use all the symbols you want for your topo, but if the paper can only represent 3 dimensions, you're limited to only that, unles you can build a proof, which, invariably rests on the very language you're incapable of using in your explanation. But a proof would be a roundabout way of explaining whatever it is your trying to say without the burden of your limited abilities.

You've used your own "mind language" as it were, to convince your own self of your idea of consciousness...yet you've convinced no one else on this thread. Why? Can't you say what you think? Are we incapable of thinking like you? Don't we understand words in our heads the same way? Is everyone else crazy except you? Or might it be that words are (currently) just blunt monodimensional instruments incapable of the nuance you think is required. If that's the case, why should they only for work for you?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 24, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
You've used your own "mind language" as it were, to convince your own self that your idea of consciousness is correct...yet you've convinced no one else on this thread. Why? Can't you say what you think? Are we incapable of thinking like you? Don't we understand words in our heads the same way? Is everyone else crazy except you? Or might it be that words are (currently) just blunt monodimensional instruments incapable of the nuance you think is required. If that's the case, why should they only for work for you?


Until very recently I would have torn into this rant, countered the straw man offered up - and nothing at all would have changed.

Where you have missed the boat entirely is in your clinging to some "idea" of consciousness, some mental picture or model or structure, which you believe I am proposing, that this "model" is associated with "words in my head," arrived at by way of "what you (I) think."

In fact what Jan, Mike and I have been haranguing on all these months is that we are so close to such ideas, words and thinking that we know nothing else, and mistake these constructs fort reality. Not so, amigo.

The basic task of most so-called spiritual work is not chasing miracles, rather detaching from these very ideas, words, and thinking. The fact that nobody can frame what is left with "the nuance that is required" is no fault of the non-discursive, which was left behind in the process.

But as Jan just pointed out, we can't expect you to either understand or believe as much minus a boundary experience in which your normal POV cracks in half and shatters at your feet. Trying to get hold of this minus such experiences is like expecting someone to "get" what wall climbing is about by studying an Ansel Adams print of El Cap and a description of The Nose from the old Roper guide. You literally can't even imagine the experience of being up there for real. Till you are.

But I'm done trying to twist people's arm in that direction. That's gets us nowhere.

JL
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
It's called lowering the bar

just keep lowering it until there is nothing left
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 24, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Jan, Mike and I...

Yeah, it's hard to believe the rest of us were able to brook this influence, lol!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Aug 24, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
Actually, we're just the only three stubborn enough to stand up against the repeated insults.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 24, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
Jan wrote,
Actually, we're just the only three stubborn enough to stand up against the repeated insults.

Yeah, the "insults" were barbaric, bordorline felonious, weren't they?! with such calls across the pages as... Stupid Americans... fruitcake... idiots...

Remembering this IS a debate thread, what did the progressive seculars ever call you Jan? The names escape me presently, perhaps you can show us where you were called stupid, fruitcake, idiotic or their equivalent? So "insulting" I'm sure you can immediately recall them, yes?

FYI I really don't believe referring to you as a "paranormalist" - which in the past I've done - is all that offensive, insulting, or out of bounds considering, for instance, what you posted today regarding dreams on the missing climber thread.

You've certainly written a lot of nonsense in the past, regarding brain works, e.g., or other areas of science which were clearly outside your purview, and I've certainly called it that in the past - before I decided it's time we ignore it.

Truth is, we secular progressive dawkinsian ilk are quite the caring, sensitive and gracious sort - proof being that on the missing climber thread, for instance, you weren't called out for your nonsense. In that context, it would've been inappropriate. But you could probably bet your bottom dollar when climbers read said post at issue there were more than a few readers evincing head nodding or face palming gestures.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 24, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
Just curious, Fruity - In what area of this converstation do you consider yourself "outside of your ilk?" And I mean WAY past your area of knowledge of expertise? Or do you, perchance, construe your very own self as a kind of High Lama of the Whole McGillah?

Put differently, what might be the indispensible knowledge that Mike or Jan (both PHDs) have that you do not, of which you know nothing whatsoever? And don't start squabbling over what "indispensible" means.

This should be rare?

JL

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 24, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
Of this conversation? No area, really. My area of interest, expertise, work experience is right here... where science, belief (religious or other, philosophical, sociopolitical, humanistic), history, language, and human functioning and performance intersect. What brings me here, keeps me engaged (often unencouragingly), is of course my other interest which of course is climbing. There you have it. ;)

I'm certainly way past my own area of knowledge in specialized nooks like high energy physics or gene therapy, e.g., or today's electronics and computer science. But thank goodness in this regard we have others, in physics for example someone like Ed H, here, or others (e.g., Steven Weinberg), also access to meta-expertise of all kinds from all fields that point to, and corroborate, the basic models.

what might be the indispensible knowledge that Mike or Jan (both PHDs) have that you do not, of which you know nothing whatsoever?

Relating to what, though? Relating to my work field? If it's relating to my work field (as opposed to Sherpa culture, e.g.,) I haven't a clue, and if I had to bet, forced to, I'd bet they haven't any.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Aug 24, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
This is the problem in my view. You and others keep bringing up belief while the three of us are trying to talk about our experience and what it might mean and how it fits into the overall scheme of things which is not the same.Of course you'll never accept that science as the solution to all human problems is not a belief system in itself.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2013 - 10:32pm PT


Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal

Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
It's called lowering the bar

just keep lowering it until there is nothing left

Spoken like a true democrat

I'll bet you vote to raise the minimum wage too

Not that I'm a republican..
Messages 15781 - 15800 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews