Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
MH2

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
I like lizards. I did before I had a word or name for them. What I have learned since has added to my liking for lizards.
MH2

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
And so those of us who have decided to try anothr tact, and to actually venture inside the house


When I was a kid I loved to leave the house early in the morning. It would be light but the sun would not be up yet. The air was damp and full of smells. Birds would be singing and animals would be on the move. I would explore the hills and creeks, turn over rocks and logs, and climb the trees. The world outside the house was full of fascinating colors, shapes, sounds, textures, patterns, and creatures. The house itself was fine for getting in out of the rain and for snacks.

When I read the descriptions of meditation and self-contemplation on this thread it makes me think that parts of some of your houses need repair and that your practice helps with that.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
When I was a kid I loved to leave the house early in the morning. It would be light but the sun would not be up yet. The air was damp and full of smells. Birds would be singing and animals would be on the move. I would explore the hills and creeks, turn over rocks and logs, and climb the trees. The world outside the house was full of fascinating colors, shapes, sounds, textures, patterns, and creatures. The house itself was fine for getting in out of the rain and for snacks.

Excellent paragraph .
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
So, in my darkness, I also wonder about the repeated comment that zen "has no content." Because that sounds like, really zen dude, but something that has no content would, by definition, leave no trace. And yet we have these apparent things out in that shimmering void that look like this:


Sometimes it's a little tricky to know if a person is being sincere or is just sort of wanking around the tree on these subjects, but yours are common and valid qesstions despite the "hey, dude" projections - which is your business.

When investigating any of the internal stuff, a literal handling is always slippery and not always useful. Of course we always want to know what something IS, but here, you can almost always outsmart yourself by finding contentions that really do make perfect sense. But you keep having to dig in and see where the truth lies.

Per the fact that Zen has no content, what that means is that the actual practice of Zen is not not aimed at quantifying, analyzing or even knowing the details about what arises moment to moment in your awareness, but rather learning to let go of our attachments to whatever comes up. This is not the same thing as shining something on, rather it is the art of suspending judgement and being radically open to whatever the content is, good or bad, without having to cling or hold onto or push away. In this sense the practice itself is not about what comes up, ie content, but rather holding a neutral frame. Zen, in one sense, is the art of holding this neutral frame, which is the natural disposition of our awareness when out ego or discursive mind does not tell us what to think about this or that. There's more to it than that, but this is the start of it.

Another way to look at it is this: When we normally operate in the world, our awareness trombones in and out of narrow to wide focus depending on what we want to discursively wrangle at a given time. Note that there are really two things going on here. You have the figure, which is what we are narrowly focued on, and we have the so-called ground, which is the background in which the content arises. The discursive arts are focused on the figure, the thing, though we tend to vasicilate narrow to wide because we can only hold a tight focus for a while before we need a break, and during the times when our focus goes lax and we are relaxing, doing nothing, the answers come to us - and most will belive they are supplied mechanically by the unconscious (not entirly so, but that's another story). But notice what happens when you hold your focus wide, and when the ground, rather than the figure, is paramount.

I have invited the biggest doubters and staunchest physicalists on this list to partake in a few very simple exercises to illustrate the limits of the discursive, and simply notice how they dash away from the invitation like rats from a burning ship, or "can't be bothered," while harping continuously on the very subject - so long as they can do so discursively. You'd think I was inviting people to swallow koolaid.

And note Craig kept preaching to us how all "Masters" were entirely deluded, I offered to pay for him to go on a short retreat with one and he flat out refused. So we have to use these examples as empiracle evidence that even the soberest foray outside of discursive is largely an imposibility for most people, even those of an adventurous bent. They simply can't muster the resolve or effort to do anything but stick with the comfortable and known status quo.

But if you really want to understand issues like "no content," the surest way is not to rag on the seeming ironies, but to jump in and find out for yourself what this really means. There's really no need to fear the unknown reaches of your own mind.

M2: When I read the descriptions of meditation and self-contemplation on this thread it makes me think that parts of some of your houses need repair and that your practice helps with that.

I would just point out the tendency for countertranfrence in this regards. But so long as you try and evaluate (all negative - let that be true because it is) others, as opposed to bring the game on home to your own field, the boon of subjective adventures will remain lost on you, as it apparently is at this juncture.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:21pm PT

The house itself was fine for getting in out of the rain and for snacks

You've gott'in a belly laugh from me more than once! I only wish that I could show you the expression on my face through words on a screen. This is why I think the Internet is so queer!!
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
Interesting that you can't tell the tone, so therefore it's either a despicable jab or a facile query. How convenient. But no fear, I for one have no great anxieties about blowing my mind, and as for the exercises you've recommended so far, they're old news to anyone who grew up in the seventies and had any interest in these so-called experiential arts. Mother's milk, perhaps taken for granted. But if it's what made you who you are and you feel a need to preach it to a largely imaginary blinkered crowd of gapers, well, then, that's your business, I suppose.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:42pm PT

countertranfrence

Is it just me?, or does Largo seemingly come up with his own language with every post?

Wikidictionary didn't know this word. But the rest was indisputable
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Pure Modern ZEN here:




And here:




Clearly one or two will understand. Truly.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
they're old news to anyone who grew up in the seventies and had any interest in these so-called experiential arts.


You're not only a sage, Cintune, but a clairvoyant, LOL, insofar as I haven't yet described what these exercises actually are.

What's genius here is that out of one side of your mouth you can say you simply don't get this whole no-mind, no-content gig - or ridicule the subject with glib and puerile quips - and then out of the other side you can trot out your "old news" rant. Damn, dude, you've tied your own mind into such a Gordian knot that veriily, there might be no untying it no how. And so far as ever saying exactly what you mean, and truly meaning what you say, you simply must be that dusty old rummy who the Red Man once referred to as having a "forked tongue," meaning no sober person would ever know for sure what you really felt or mean or want or know. What's more, there seems a vast amount of insincerity in looking at any of these issues beyond a strictly surface kind of silly game.

Nobodies preaching to you, Cintune. Your capacity to listen and learn fell fatally compromised by a kind of toxic impulse to lampoon. No harm there - no one here is beyond reproach, least of all me. But when the lampooning insinuates that you understand the subject matter intimately, and that it's "all old news," when in fact your are a totaly pretender per this material, then an otherwise bit of clowning around starts smelling of fraud, ill-will and posturing.

I might be entirely wrong about all of this. But how about this. I invite you to ask one honest question about any so-called spiritual or subjective adventure, dealign with something for which you are honestly inerested, and for which you have no understanding and no "right" answer already in your head. I will make no attempt to answer this myself, but it might open an interesting line of discussion since staunch quantifiers seem to have an almost impossible time asking questioins on any of this.

JL
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
. . .and simply notice how they dash away from the invitation like rats from a burning ship, or "can't be bothered," while harping continuously on the very subject - so long as they can do so discursively

You continually provoke and heighten the level of bellicosity, John. I suspect there is some other agenda in play here, but I would hesitate to speculate. The game is more than attempting to convert a few science types.

And, yes,those types do follow your lead and thrust back.

As the original stonemaster it's a peculiar game you play . . . but it's fascinating to watch for your next move.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
Cintune:

Language could promote a state of consciousness--hearing--but there is no need for content. Content comes when the thinking mind gets busy. Hence, no-mind and no content.

As regarding "the things" in the image you posted, you say,

. . . by virtue of their existence [things in the images] denote content. . .


Content / things are social creations (models, definitions, concepts, ideas, etc) that manifest, but they don't exist even noumenally much less phenomenally. Content and things are made up, constructed by consensus-based reality. Buddhists call these obscurations.

You see content / things in the image. I see energy / light. The "things" you see are not there, nor would they be there if you were standing right then right there. Things may manifest, but they don't exist. (It's not just a question of labels. It's an inability to grasp or define anything concretely, surely, without doubt or any possible refutation. You can only do so via negativa.)

When you watch TV, you probably see people, walls, cars, action, characters, plot lines, advertising, etc. More accurately you're seeing light or energy patterns. The next time you watch TV, see how long you can continue to watch the screen and ignore the drama elements.

Don't worry so much about whether things exist (an academic exercise). Just be careful and see without mental elaborations.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
I think everyone should check out this 18 minute video which is an animated 3-D computer simulated map of the known and measured universe - itself approximately 1% of what we calculate is out there.

If you don't feel humility after watching that, you never will.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-video-maps-universe-20130613,0,5793604.story

Another interesting article in the New York Times discusses how we behave is related to our surroundings and that we do not have nearly as fixed a personality as we would like to think. One of the most interesting experiments described verified that people are more honest when dealing with money in a room with a poster of large eyes above the money pot rather than a poster of wildflowers. It seems to me that ought to put the benefits of religion into some perspective as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/a-self-defined-by-place.html?ref=opinion
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
And this one. Clearly you understand.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
Yes Chief
Ive mastered the double haul. And seeking the "perfect loop" is a quest of mIne. As is "the perfect stroke" and "the perfect swing" and "the perfect stride" and "the perfect balance".
But twisting a grip is queer. Although I enjoy it also.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
It is all about the intense focus. Intense 110% Focus. Both require it. Trust me.

How's your Vodoo Cast?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:34pm PT

You see content / things in the image. I see energy / light. The "things" you see are not there, nor would they be there if you were standing right then right there. Things may manifest, but they don't exist

You see light? I look at the sun and I see what we've labeled light. Then I look at the tree and I see it. But I don't see anything in between. Do you? At night I don't see either. Does that mean their not there? I'm stumbling in the dark.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:50pm PT

How's your Vodoo Cast?

My Vodoo's OK. I'd use a similar technique when casting with lots o foliage
behind me. That was great video photography. Now you got me jones'en
sitt'in here in JTree. GIVE ME SOME WATER!
MH2

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
GIVE ME SOME WATER!


YES SIR! RIGHT AWAY, SIR!












Though I read that it may also be a spell to ward off vampires.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
I assume that you use a "Switch Cast". I use it in combo with the Vodoo in tight situ's.



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