Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:22am PT



NOW is all any of you truly have.
jstan

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:38am PT
Yeah? One of those existing individual freedoms is the right to worship as one sees fit. I don't get what you're driving at.

DMT

You don't read newspapers?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:40am PT
Whyn't you connect the dots for me?

DMT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:47am PT
Largo

You're just proving my point once more. Your actions/words speak loud and clear... You're a bullying tool with zen, fear and shame as hook... but poor man ... you're getting nowhere...
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:51am PT
Marlow, how on earth do you hold a job in Norway when you can't even follow the simplest direction. And the point is not for ME to get anywhere (note your obsession on the other man), but for you to get your sorry ass out of that corner. So do the exercise and report back. And this has nothing to do with Zen. I'm bullying you because every troll asked for it.

Like I said, I give one million to one odds that you, dear Marlow, will EVER ask an honest question, one in which you don't already have the "right" answer in your head. Instead, you will "otherate" on someone else - and remain exactly where you are. Stuck in the corner, wearing the pointy hat. All of Scandanavia is embarassed for you, Marlow. And half of Europe. Make a move.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:54am PT
Largo.

Do you want me to repeat my well proven point above?

By the way: I'm not scared of "embarrassment". But I guess your bullying is scaring some other people to silence. And since you mentioned embarrassment. Embarrassment hasn't been in my thoughts, but clearly in yours. Are you projecting? Are you embarrassed?

Edited:
WBraun - ... one at a time... mellow guy...
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:55am PT
If we you spend your life in total worries/fear and in a state of always expecting something to be better than what you have now, you will have not lived. You will have just wasted an opportunity of a lifetime. Literally.

Life is not something you gain. It is merely an opportunity to experience. No such thing as bad or good. Everything is just as it is suppose to be. Accepting that simple truth will free you to experience the cards you have been dealt.

NOW is the process of picking up the cards you have been dealt and then playing them to the best of your given abilities. You do not play a part in determining the hand you are dealt. But you sure can determine whether you pick em up and then how to play them.


Simple.


Stop thinking and start playing.
WBraun

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Marlow row a boat by yourself across the ocean.

By the time you get to the other side you'll finally know WTF Largo is saying.

Until then you're a projecting nutcase.

Marlow says; "Largo is a bully"

LOL

I've never ever seen Largo bully anyone in my life.

He's so mellow .....
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
Largo.

Do you want me to repeat my well proven point above?

By the way: I'm not scared of "embarrassment". But I guess your bullying is scaring some other people to silence. And since you mentioned embarrassment. Embarrassment hasn't been in my thoughts, but clearly in yours. Are you projecting? Are you embarrassed


Marlow-

You haven't done the exercise. You haven't aksed a question. And you're still "otherating," focused on the other guy.

Gather yourself, say something meaningful about your own life, without it vectoring off me or some other person. Warner's NOT your daddy. Let that go, Marlow. Stop flaming and get real. Flaming , by definition, is diverting attention away from your own self and attacking others. Stop that this minute, Marlow.

Beat the one million to one odds saying that you can't ask a qustion. Do SOMETHING beyond just sniveling. You'll never get out of that corner the way you're going.

All of Norway and parts of Europe are rooting for you, Marlow. The exercise, or a question: those are your options. Your way out of the corner.

Man up. Pick one. Do us proud.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
You're a bullying tool with zen, fear and shame as hook... but poor man ... you're getting nowhere...

That sounds about right. Pretty close....

Hahahaha
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
But I guess your bullying is scaring some other people to silence


Not really. Being a spectator in this game of wits (??) is entertaining, like watching a 1970s British comedy farce.


;>)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 8, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Actually, if you ever read old western literature it was great fun with the editors of competing newspapers would take a piss at each other. But there, the authors would never call the other cad a bully, since that was the entire point. I've long ago given up on anyone here actually taking a step out of the third person. For a hundred reasons, the curiousity about their lives is simply not there. Now it's just razing for entertainment and a break from work.

But it is sort of too bad because the first person expeditons are mind boggling, whereas this is merely entertainment in a passing way.'

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
But it is sort of too bad because the first person expeditons are mind boggling

People on this thread and elsewhere have mind -boggling experiences all the time without necessarily buying into the rain dance currently on display.
If its gonna rain, or shine , in a person's life ,then it will most likely come about naturally and subtly-- not as a result of being ritually beaten over the head, and exhorted ad nauseum with the hard sell.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 8, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
I've long ago given up on anyone here actually taking a step out of the third person. For a hundred reasons, the curiousity about their lives is simply not there. Now it's just razing for entertainment and a break from work.

Is it the salesman or the product, do you think, that is failing here?

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 8, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Just note that while everyone groans about the product, the means of delivery, and all the rest, two things persist:

People insist that they will do what's advertised, but in their own way - this being another version of: We already know all about that. Or, I'll do that myself. Invitations to tell us about their explorations avail us - nothing.

And all along, folks keep repeating the same route and placing virture on same.

What gets lost here is that the subject has really been about the individual, and his actual, 1st person experience, and this got twisted into MY dog and pony show, which is an odd thing considering it is your life and your 1st person, direct experience that is the one and only key factor. I've been trying to bully into looking at their own lives, not just third person figures about same.

The default is to start harping on the messenger; my default is to riducule those claiming to have an actual interst in esoteric ideas, while doing nothing to suggest that they do.

But I've learned a lot about how defnded people are about looking within, and how the least excuse to blame me or others, or to say they are already doing so, but in their own way, but gently (not bothering), becomes yet another diversion away from self. Rather then look in, attack out. That's a dynamic I never realized till this thread.

And per Ward's "rain dance," yet again he is guessing and he couldn't be more mistaken. The rain dance is simply your own process. If you see it as an unfolding or an American Indian dance, that is your business. But if you ever want to dive into it via first person means, it is not remotely natural (it is very counterintuitive), but it is subtle, though not at first.

Trying to determind how it should be before tying into the rope is as dishonest as insisting you've been climbing all along, but in your own way, or that what I am suggesting is "my" way, when it is no such thing. Invitations to simply look at how you focus your attention has nothing to do with me. Fact is, the interest in new routes simply isn't there, or here.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
Damn Largoid , you are persistent--gotta hand that much to you.

Like a dog walking around all day with the same bone between his teeth.

Credit: Ward Trotter
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 8, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
folks keep repeating the same route and placing virtue on same

You should know that this can be an effective moving meditation leading to unusual, even enlightening experiences. Inappropriate analogy IMHO.
MH2

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
folks keep repeating the same route and placing virtue on same


It's a Rinzai Zen thing. JL is repeating the same message and placing virtue on same yet must kill the message, too.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
MikeL - Good points, well written, however… I may be reading too much into your written word.

And to be sure, this discussion is not about winning as my previously posted Arguement video mentions….

I never meant to sound like I was more concerned about those in undeveloped countries over my/your own. I was merely pointing out that the idea that the things that I thought you pointed to as "important" were not important for all people (i.e. those in the third world, those who somehow live on $2.50 a day working in a sweatshop, or the occasional homeless person in the first world country around your/my part of the country.

I've just reviewed your initial response to my vid post and found the list of things that you considered outside reason's/logic's (and science)'s ability to handle very well to be…. well… not very important, either to the individual or the collective in the grand scheme of things.


Values, culture, visions, art, heroes, God, human aspirations, heart, soul, mystery, great passions, doubt / skepticism, religious experiences, uniqueness, folk mind, death, great men and women, ambiguity, nobility, taste, brilliance, paradox, glory, war, chaos, awareness, primitive feelings, taboos, action, intuition, indeterminacy, truth, deeds, perfection, danger, nonconformity, contrast, humor, passions, salvation, creativity, truth, virtue, genius, extremes, demonic beings, good & evil, leadership, dignity, decisions, polarities, instinct, sleep, dreams, history, entrepreneurship, faith, unconsciousness, authenticity, commitment, poetry, charisma, ends, the sacred.

- Maybe I am exhibiting signs of cognitive abstraction and orientation because I am dismissing the list of things as irrelevant or foolish.

I agree that these things may go a long way in forming ones overall character in life… but what does this get anyone in life: yes, maybe a better job, which may lead to a "better life"… but according to my thinking, or along my line of questioning: Would this better character = better life rule apply to everyone on the globe? The Alaskian Native to the Chinese Farmer to the NY/LA homeless.

Your list is a good one to ponder… It would be nice to have everyone thinking along the lines that values, culture, art aspirations, passion, uniqueness, leadership, authenticity, dignity, perfection and others were first and foremost on their minds….. maybe you can add selflessness, other-mindedness, philanthropy, civic mindedness (on a grand scale) and maybe a little integrity. In a way, what if we all lived in a world where there was no need for most of your list because every person had others betterment in mind instead of their own selfish everything…

Wow, that just sounds utopian and with my small mind and reality standing in the way will likely never be. Until then, I guess we can continue to entertain the ideas that faith, God, heart, soul, good & evil and others are very real, matter more than anything else, and make anyones life at all better.

Cheers

PS. I just took a dump and had a thought: Most on that list of yours… I was trying to think of how much of that list would be on my mind when reviewing my life as I lay dying. Can you say that at the end of ones life they would still be seeking these things? For instance I'm on my death bed wondering if I had enough or the right values, culture, art, heroes, etc., etc…. and what if we lived in a world where on a persons death bed they can say to themselves that they lived a good life because they know that they have helped as many people during their lives as possible (and maybe a few more with organ donations)… How freeing would that be? Liberating maybe?

Certainly puts war to shame or at least asks what the hell is it for?

For me, what's best about your post above is your intentions. Those are really enough. Any more, is more than enough. I understand that appears heartless.

 Not really. Its a safe, realistic review that any person should take within themselves all the time.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Nicer post Jingy!
Blitzo has me think'in about things too..

Take care of yourself, and all the others you can!
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