Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
"Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, 'but how can it be like that?' because you will get 'down the drain,' into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that"
(Richard P. Feynman)
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
The very center of the axle does absolutely nothing. Nada.

That begs the question.

The center of the axle has a physical length and it rotates. It is part of the whole axle.

And if the axle is hollow then it does just what the space between the walls of a house do but that empty space would not be considered a wall or the center of the wall, it is space between something.

Mumbo jumbo spiritual stuff doesn't answer anything, it just seeks to call things by different names to confuse the listener into thinking that there is more than there really is.

You might as well have said "if a tree falls in the forest..." or ":what is the sound of one hand..." or any other such nonsense. Or is that non-sense?

Dave
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
What's Your Excuse? — II, & All Access Pass
A New Beginning Radio : Greg Laurie
http://www.harvest.org/radio/listen/2013-06-11.html?autoplay=1

Matthew 22
The Parable of the Wedding Feast
22 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

...nothing is stopping you but you!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
rectorsquid

Obviously you are not a Bicycle OR Motorcycle Mechanic. The Center Axle/Rod is stationary. Every item that is part of the wheel rotates around the axle. Everything. The skewers (bicycle) or lock nuts on each end tighten it to the bike frame and keep the rod/axle stationary.




MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
Go-B:

The God of the Old Testament is a pretty tough God.

My mother gave up reading the Old Testament when I went to Viet Nam in the 60s. Too vengeful, too righteous, too murderous. She switched to the New Testament instead. T'was easier on her and more optimistic.

So I guess the message of Matt 22 is: "suit up and show up"--or else, eh?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
5 "But they made light of it and went their ways"

...sad but true!

P. S. Jesus paid a high price so we could have new white garments, and I wouldn't let you in this motorhome without them let alone Heaven!

The World's Most Expensive Motor Home Includes Rooftop Terrace & Bar For $3.1 Million (PHOTOS)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/worlds-most-expensive-motor-home_n_3417471.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl10%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D327139

photo not found
Missing photo ID#306509
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
Craig has said that every spiritual seeker from the beginning of time is full of sh#t and deluded, but that's not poor form, rather "the truth"
JL
I said that?
No, I said that no one has proven their belief in God to the point where it can be said that their belief in God, or a spiritual dimension exists that can answer all the beliefs that have been put forward as fact.

Yes they are deluded, just like we were all deluded into thinking that the earth was flat, we are God's children, and demons cause disease, pray to the weather gods or you will get fire and brimstone!

JL takes issue with me personally about my opinion.

Why doesn't JL take issue with Go-be, BB or WB? are their opinions OK with JL,
and it's only me, Ed, base, citune, and HFCS's opinions that he takes as BS??

Is it dishonest?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
"Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, 'but how can it be like that?' because you will get 'down the drain,' into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that"(Richard P. Feynman)

On the peculiarities of quantum behavior. Things that exist that lie beyond our ability to describe . . . yet are quantifiable.

Nice quote.
WBraun

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
Truth trumps proof.

Stupid proof poofers.

Gimmmie proof they demand!

You don't deserve proof yet.

You have to earn it.

Then the truth will give you proof.

Until then you're just a stupid rascal ......
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
Truth of what WB?

tell us what is true?
or we can assume you have No truth, just dislike for us trying to find the truth

The truth can always be proven as true,
if it can't be proven as true, how can you say it's the truth?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
Yes they are deluded, just like we were all deluded into thinking that the earth was flat, we are God's children, and demons cause disease, pray to the weather gods or you will get fire and brimstone!

Any belief is delusion.

Truth trumps proof.

(Pretty darned good, Werner.)
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
Yes, most beliefs are delusional
That's why we have science to sort out the fakes from the true facts that are not based on faith or some warm fuzzy feeling you had
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
Sorry Craig but Spirituality IS NOT a "belief". It is an infinite action. No beginning and no end. That is where you missed the train or the boat. Which ever suites your fancy better.

BTW. Science is human. A human belief system. It too must then be delusional.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
Most of you guys just believe some stuff you read in some book years ago, and never thought to check out if it holds up to any critical thinking, mostly just delusional fairy tales
or that critical thinking is some how to blame, either way, you have nothing to offer in the way of truth
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
Craig.

No belief. Just an action. Minute by minute. Second by Second. Focusing and accepting on the NOW of what is. Not what was nor what could/can be. Thus the infinite component of it all. NOW. Infinitely NOW. That is all you and every other entity in the Universe has and is. NOW.

Oh yeah, cease the thinking stuff. It disallows the NOW from being available. You think far too much Craig and have most assuredly missed out on over 70% of all that has happened around you throughout your life.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
The now is now
nothing more
there are no connections, except at the atomic level, which is meaningless at our level

show us proof that we are connected to something bigger
That is the whole point, there is Nothing bigger
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
Now you are catching on Craig. In order to be sincere about your post, the thinking must cease. Immediately.

show us proof that we are connected to something bigger
That is the whole point, there is Nothing bigger.


No there isn't. We are all part of the supposed "bigger" you speak of. Independently. Not connected to anything. We just are. Not physically of course. Rather spiritually. It just is and it will always be. We are all part of it. Accept it and you will become free of your ego.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
I've been living in the here and now for the last 35 years
and I can tell you that it has no higher connection, nor greater meaning, it's just awareness, mindfulness, openness
it has nothing to do with god or anything
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
No argument there Craig. But a bit hypocritical on your part. Science is your God. You swear by it.

As far a something greater than I. Yup. The Universe and it's infinite laws. You bet it is greater than you and I and the all puny stinking humans egos.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
No, I said that no one has proven their belief in God to the point where it can be said that their belief in God, or a spiritual dimension exists that can answer all the beliefs that have been put forward as fact.

Yes they are deluded, just like we were all deluded into thinking that the earth was flat, we are God's children, and demons cause disease, pray to the weather gods or you will get fire and brimstone!

JL takes issue with me personally about my opinion.

Why doesn't JL take issue with Go-be, BB or WB? are their opinions OK with JL, and it's only me, Ed, base, citune, and HFCS's opinions that he takes as BS??

Is it dishonest?


When I say "dishonest," I mean nothing personally, rather you are simply pandering opinions as facts, having nothing but your own experice to bast this on. There is a grave risk in judging the entire history of the human race on your own experience and intelligence, which is what you are doing.
You are also asking for discursive "proof" of what we have repeatedly said is not a discursive realm. This is not a conspiracy of peopole trying to fool or trick you. An apparently you are also prone to scientism in that quantifying is now a fundamentalist kind of end-all religion of numbers ergo there simply cannot be such a realm where quantifing can find no play. Impossible - but true.

It is one thing for those who don't believe this to say so, having had no experience or insights that would lead them to know otherwise, and also, having no experience that "knowing" discursively is often an external or surface layer grasping of some thing.

There are many aspects of the entire internal/subjective game that are apparently lost on you and which, if you ask anyone steeped in the work, have nothnig to do with feelings, beliefs, faith, etc. As I said some time ago, if you are pleased with the progress you have made with the larger questions, or now consider them as silly and unanswerable, that is entirely your own business. We'll all said that the work is not for everyone, just as wall climbing or music or sushi is not for everyone. But bashing things for which you have no insight, skill, or wherewithal is not really a credible position. Like the kid who just posted about how stupid is the question about a falling tree and a sound. He didn't even understand what the question was trying to answer or address.

JL
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