Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
I don't think anyone regards you as a scoundrel, John. The thing is that what you posit isn't necessarily wrong, just based on faith.

I posted about a car crash that had deep to this day meaning for me but no relevance to fact even though I had the picture in my mind from point of collision to aftermath.

Something happened that changed the course of 2 lives that night. There was a physical reality and a personal action that changed things for the best.

What caused what ?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
The thing is that what you posit isn't necessarily wrong, just based on faith.


Not true. I have called such comments dishonest in the past - perhaps harshly, as Mike pointed out - because while you offer this as somethng you actually know, in fact you do not. In this regards it is worth noting that to my knowledge, neither Mike, Jan or I have made pronouncements on anyone else's experience, trying to interpret what it is or what it means. While many have guessed about our experience and have offered the most fantastic pronouncements - from "revealed wisdon," to wuwu, to delusions, to blarney, most of our comments have been per approaching your experience from a limited, evaluating perspective. Scientism insists that evaluating is limitless, though as we have pointed out, this is just more blowback from the evaluating mind itself, so how would you know otherwise? You can't and you don't, though you insist you do. That's the rub. And to point this out is wrath inducing in many cases. But that's the work.

I have said 1,000 times none of this has anything to do with faith or beliefs or ideas. It has to do with practice and experience.

JL
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
The thing is that what you posit isn't necessarily wrong, just based on faith.

Spirituality has absolutely NOTHING to do with faith. Nothing. Faith is of human origin. Thus if you look at Spirituality with a human concept, science, it will not comprehend it. Thus it nullifies it. Refutes it with human logic/mathematics/codes etc.

practice and experience.

Yup. Many times over. Many visits over a long period of time. At least in the human perspective that is.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:53pm PT

Note that most every one of these posts is about what a low-down scoundrel I am
I don't think that! At least ur Search'in.

a religious salesman pandering "nothng at all,"
This I agree with. Because without God you are "nothing"
Just like Spirituality is "no-thing" without a God.

how many people have made any effort to set aside the discursive long enough to see what was left?
Only every true christian.

"I have no idea whatsoever about any of this and couldn't care less,"
That's because ur only peddleing meditation. Insight for only the users wills. The term meditation was used way back in Gennesis. Over 5k yrs ago. To get inline with Gods will. Not to separate from it. Even Jesus meditated to align with Gods will.

A lot of the staunchest critics of all of this are actually the best candidates for the work. I think at least some of them realize this, if only vaguely.
Ur right! God likes to choose people with spoonk to be His messengers.
This quote reminds me of the great apostle Paul. Prolly one of the Greatest critics of God in all time. He talked big time shite about God. Until God "showed" him the way. Then he became the Greatest messenger of all time. Do you know the story? go-B can prolly give you the chap.
and verse.

Just note how unbelievably difficult it is for people to change tracks, even an inch.
For a Man to approach God, he must reveal complete nudity, IE complete humility.
Jesus didnt come with a sword for judgement. He came with open arms and compassion.
He councils and consoles me everyday. My ONLY motivation on this thread is to share with
my friends the most incrediable climb ive ever approached. And it AIN'T about fuzzy feelings.
It's about REALISM.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
No one is going to explain Bob Dylan to my satisfaction.


You can say that again. How about "There aint no success like failure, and failure ain't no success at all"


Any of you geniuses got that one figured out?

(Not you Braun)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:17pm PT
There aint no success like failure, and failure ain't no success at all"

You learn more about how to do things by your failures or mistakes. Still in the end that is not enough to succeed . Dylan is pointing at yet another supreme irony in life .
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
In which case, what do you call success?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
Finally getting up the route with no falls after taking several on previous attempts.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
I always thought a climb was never a success unless the failure was successfully completed with friendship intact
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
In that case the Dylan song you want is " Positively 4 th Street"
LOL
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:39am PT
Mh2 was right, and I misspoke. "There's only a handful of us with any deep experience of the non discursive mind" was the wrong way to put it. What I should have said was, "There's only a handful of us with prolonged experience of the non discursive mind". As jogill pointed out earlier, who's to say that one experience is deeper or more profound than another?

As for the non discursive mind being the only path, Zen may claim that, but in most other schools of Buddhism more than one path is recognized. In the Indian traditions of both Hinduism and Buddhism, and many other schools of Buddhism in north Asia, four major paths or yogas are recognized. These include the yogas of wisdom and knowledge, selfless service, love and devotion, and the way of meditation. Both Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism at least, always emphasize that the way of meditation is the fastest path but can also be a dangerous one.

The danger of the meditation path is developing the mind without the heart. Most Buddhism says full enlightenment is a union of wisdom and compassion. Personally I don't see much compassion in Zen and that's one of the reasons I never took to it. There is a reason it was the preferred form of Buddhism for the samurai class and why the majority of Japanese adhere to other forms of Buddhism. The deepest layers of Dzogchen although they may sound like Zen, are taught only after many years of compassion practices.

Spirituality without religion can be good and very freeing in one sense. It can also be as dry and ego ridden as anything the discursive mind produces. Traditionally it was the ethical and devotional teachings of religion which countered this tendency. If we aren't going to have religion in the future, than one of the first tasks of secular meditation it seems to me, needs to be a refocus on compassion.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:57am PT
It can also be as dry and ego ridden as anything the discursive mind produces.

In that case it is no longer the state of total acceptance and depletion that in fact is the by product of the spiritual dimension. Ego has no place in spirituality. When ego is present, it is once again of human ideals and thus it becomes a "religion". Filled with the human concepts of expectations and failing perceptions. No longer allowing one to remain in the center of the circle in the state of total acceptance.

Throw away holiness and wisdom, and the people will be a hundred times happier.

Throw away morality and justice, and the people will do the right thing.

Throw away industry and profit, and there will be no thieves.

If these three are not enough, then stay at the center of the circle and let things take their course.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:42am PT
Jan's right about bringing the heart into it. This was the rub against the original approach of "Big Mind," which is a melding of Voice Dialogue and Zen. And very effective in some cases. The point is that you have to engage the entire person, not just Mind.

One could look at all of this as there being people out there who, metaphoriclly speaking, have a golden doubloon in their pocket but don't know it. Said doubloon has nothing whatsoever to do with old time religion, faith, belief, content, or stuff. The whole point is to reach into your pocket. Insted, people want to argue over what they think it is, how we are deluded to think it is gold at all, that they have already gone there and found no gold (wrong pocket?), that the doubloon is "an illusion," even though we have said all along that it is nothing but their own life. All you really have to do is reach into your pocket. But first they must know why and have some tangible reason and discursive description and they will not bow to any masters - as though we do.

Most people still associtate the doubloon with religious nuts and scripture and dogma. Or feel like someone is selling something. Not sure what but it feels like that to me. For my part, I haven't read anyting about Zen in 15 years. Maybe more. I just show up and do the practice (reach into my pocket).

JL
WBraun

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:17am PT
I have taken the time to stare at a wall, try to calm down and consider nothingness (which I admit is very hard, and I couldn't do it).

Of course you can't.

It's not the method for this age.

Although everyone keeps trying to do the impossible ......
MH2

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:36am PT
Dylan is pointing at yet another supreme irony in life.


Well, maybe, but I bet you can't explain a cat.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:01am PT
I like this thread. It's fun and thoughtful to read. Thanks to all.

I'd say the Chief knows a little something about the Tao: another intuitional approach.


As a teacher, loving my students is my first objective; content comes second. It works best that way for me.

But I've found that the love and compassion I have for my students must not be confused with what Pema Chodron calls the enemies of compassion. The far enemy (opposite) of compassion is cruelty. But the near enemy of compassion is idiot compassion, overwhelm (helplessness), or pity. These are easy to miss because they are disguised as faux compassion.

Real compassion calls for spontaneity, courage, and the openness of "skillful means." Skillful means is the ability to know what is needed and when in the moment. (Seeing one's karma is often invoked here.) Skillful means may call for mothering, cajoling, teaching, mentoring, husbanding, criticizing, listening, etc.--any activity that will push a person out of their comfort zone. (Most of us don't have access to all those skill sets.)

It's so easy to fall in a rut. Ruts are the results of reifications. Getting out of them demands remarkable, almost superhuman efforts. We often need help. We may not like it's form when we get it.


Jim gave us a story that suggests that change comes from within. (Good joke.) But if you think about it, that seems logically impossible. Either that which is sought was always there, or a proper description of anything (to include the self) is complete and utter transcendence. How can one bootstrap to that which is not within itself? How does an equation (a physicalist's viewpoint) change itself into another equation? How does any "thing" become another thing? How does an acorn become an oak? Either there is no real change at all, there is no real "thing" at all, or notions of cause-and-effect are just ways of thinking and talking. Surely, causes and conditions have appearances, seemingness, suchness, but their existence cannot be found. They are complete transcendences that defy 1:1, lockstep descriptions or transformations. There is no thing that gets transformed. All is already here and now, but with a seemingly impenetrable mountain of obstructions and obscurations in the way of our view. At their foundations, obstructions and obscurations are reifications that come from pursuing sense objects with concepts.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:45am PT
The very center of the axle does absolutely nothing. Nada. Yet it is the foundation and the strongest component of the wheel. The wheel that goes round and round and round.
MH2

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:47am PT
"The art of art is to be as real as possible within this artificial situation."

Who said it?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
^ Norman Rockwell
MH2

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
^^ Could be. I had just heard Joni Mitchell say it in an interview with Gian Gomeshi on CBC radio.
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