Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 3, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Interview with Bono of U2 about his new book Love Intterupts

[quote]Bono: You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics; in physical laws every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It’s clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I’m absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that “as you reap, so you will sow” stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff. Michka: I’d be interested to hear that. Bono: That’s between me and God. But I’d be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge. I’d be in deep s—. It doesn’t excuse my mistakes, but I’m holding out for Grace. I’m holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don’t have to depend on my own religiosity. Michka: The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that. Bono: But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God says: Look, you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to selfishness, and there’s a mortality as part of your very sinful nature, and, let’s face it, you’re not living a very good life, are you? There are consequences to actions. The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That’s the point. It should keep us humbled . It’s not our own good works that get us through the gates of heaven. Michka: That’s a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful, even though it’s close to lunacy, in my view. Christ has his rank among the world’s great thinkers. But Son of God, isn’t that farfetched? Bono: No, it’s not farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn’t allow you that. He doesn’t let you off that hook. Christ says: No. I’m not saying I’m a teacher, don’t call me teacher. I’m not saying I’m a prophet. I’m saying: “I’m the Messiah.” I’m saying: “I am God incarnate.” And people say: No, no, please, just be a prophet. A prophet, we can take. You’re a bit eccentric. We’ve had John the Baptist eating locusts and wild honey, we can handle that. But don’t mention the “M” word! Because, you know, we’re gonna have to crucify you. And he goes: No, no. I know you’re expecting me to come back with an army, and set you free from these creeps, but actually I am the Messiah. At this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes, and says: Oh, my God, he’s gonna keep saying this. So what you’re left with is: either Christ was who He said He was the Messiah or a complete nutcase. I mean, we’re talking nutcase on the level of Charles Manson. This man was like some of the people we’ve been talking about earlier. This man was strapping himself to a bomb, and had “King of the Jews” on his head, and, as they were putting him up on the Cross, was going: OK, martyrdom, here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it. I’m not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me, that’s farfetched If only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be transformed. When I look at the Cross of Christ, what I see up there is all my s— and everybody else’s. So I ask myself a question a lot of people have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was He just a religious nut? And there it is, and that’s the question. And no one can talk you into it or out of it. - See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/bono-on-jesus/#sthash.YKHl8v9I.dpuf[/quote]

He finally found what he was looking for..
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 3, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
Basically, belief in itself has nothing to do with reality, which is fixed for all practical purposes.

Why is it you keep bashing our reasoning ability to "believe somebody"?
Isn't it in our nature from birth to believe what our parents tell us. As adults we live everyday searching for assessments inwhich to believe. We are inquisitive into other peoples lives
because we are in fact confirming the beliefs that we have already instilled in that person.
We all believe Newton and his theories on gravity because anyone can drop an apple. But how many people actually understand his theroems, yet they still believe. I woudnt call this willful ignorance, would you? Not everyone has the time to read Einsteins notes..
when we tell someone, "yes I believe you" arent we in fact extending some of our greatest attributes of trust and respect and yes love. This is an HONOUR that shouldn't be taken lightly

Jesus said,"again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

This is a very powerful promise!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 3, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
BB,

I don't intend to "bash" anyone. Sorry if you took it that way. I was reading the climate change thread, which is full of the cast of annoying characters, and a lightbulb went off in my head. You will see some self delusion going on there.

That Ted talk posted above is excellent. The discussion of the agony of shame seems pretty well thought out.

I have a really cool thing to show you. I need to go look it up on Google Earth. I found it a while back when reading a scientology story.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 3, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
Fruity posted a link with info about some dipshit prof from Miami recently booted from his teaching position for pestering the girls. Simply another garden-variety reductionist ("Consciousness must have evolved from matter somehow"), perhaps he deserves being let go, if not for sexual harassment (gotta go for that, to be sure), then for lack of insight, LOL.

But seriously, he did present one interesting angle on the physicalists, though he uses the term, "collapsers," meaning someone trying to dumb down or simply explain away complex phenomenon by collapsing it to be no more than "underlying physical elements." To wit:

There are some who insist that consciousness just reduces to brain states - a pang of regret, say, is just a surge of chemicals across a synapse. They are the "collapsers." Though not avowedly eliminative, this kind of view is tacitly a rejection of the very existence of consciousness, because the brain processes held to constitute conscious experience consist of physical events that can exist in the absence of consciousness.

For instance, electricity in the brain correlates with mental activity but electricity in your TV presumably does not - so how can electrical processes themselves BE the essence of conscious experience?

Some insist that the electrical activity in the brain is unique, qualitatively different than the activity in your TV. This is a queer and constadictory argument coming form the collasper's camp, who's underlying belief, that the brain physically "produces" consciousness, is based on the notion that in most all other cases, a physical thing creates another physical thing. Such as, lighting creates a light show.

Naturally, the matter-equals-consciousness theory runs out of steam when we "collapse" it all and insist that consciousness IS electricity (though unique electricity), exactly, meanig it is nothing more. We can't have it both ways. It can't BE electricity, exactly, AND consciousness (something more).

Why? Because if there is nothing happening but electrochemical activity when I say, "My finger hurts," or, "I love her so," then there is nothing experiential (nothing "more") going on when I say those things. So reduction is tantamount to elimination, despite the reductionist's intentions (it's like maintaining that people called "witches" are nothing but harmless old ladies – which is tantamount to saying that there are no witches).

JL
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 3, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
More statements of truth… something lacking from the god types on this thread…



Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Credit: Dr. F.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 3, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
^^^ Know what im Say'in ? ThAt was baddass Dude!!

that's exactly what i was try'in to say.

I read fruitys link also. Even though isaid i wouldn't because their usually fruitless.
Sounded like the teacher was texting and emailing on their own time. So where's the harm?
They're both adults right?
MH2

climber
Aug 3, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Keep at it, JL. When you imply that TV and the brain are similar in that both have electric currents you are getting closer to the truth. There is a ways to go, and it may not happen in this lifetime, but it's the journey, not the destination, right?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 3, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
When you imply that TV and the brain are similar in that both have electric currents you are getting closer to the truth.


I didn't imply any such thng. I simply was quoting a passage from a professor recently booted from school for pestering the women.

I would be interested in hearing what you consider to be "the truth" about the brain, in light of what the professor just said. He pretty well put to rest the fiction that electrity and consciousness are the same things.

JL
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Aug 3, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#314328

Luke 23:44 Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45 Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two. 46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’” Having said this, He breathed His last.

47 So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, “Certainly this was a righteous Man!”

48 And the whole crowd who came together to that sight, seeing what had been done, beat their breasts and returned. 49 But all His acquaintances, and the women who followed Him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.


Luke 24:46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 4, 2013 - 10:39am PT
Once again banks may have manipulated and stolen from ordinary people. Is your pension affected?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-08/cftc-said-to-probe-icap-treasure-island-brokers-on-swap-prices.html
MH2

climber
Aug 4, 2013 - 11:33am PT

JL says
I simply was quoting a passage from a professor recently booted from school for pestering the women.



Where does this quote come from?

There are some who insist that consciousness just reduces to brain states - a pang of regret, say, is just a surge of chemicals across a synapse. They are the "collapsers." Though not avowedly eliminative, this kind of view is tacitly a rejection of the very existence of consciousness, because the brain processes held to constitute conscious experience consist of physical events that can exist in the absence of consciousness.




JL,

If you are curious about consciousness and its relation to brain activity then you need to make it more clear to yourself and to others what you mean by consciousness. It will likely always remain possible for you to say, "No, that isn't consciousness because it doesn't include that jam sandwich I had for lunch in the 3rd grade, let alone the confusion of thoughts in my head at this moment."

Here is a way to illustrate what I see at issue.





There are some who insist that light just reduces to circuit states - a flash of light, say, is just a surge of electrons across a wire. They are the "collapsers." Though not avowedly eliminative, this kind of view is tacitly a rejection of the very existence of light, because the circuit processes held to constitute light consist of physical events that can exist in the absence of light.

Notice that it is hard to say what consciousness IS in the circuit. Remove the wire and the light goes away. Remove the battery and the light goes away. Remove the lamp and the light goes away. Reduce the charge on the battery and at some point the light is no longer visible. The light is produced by the circuit but the circuit and its components are not the light.

Consciousness is produced by the brain but the brain is not consciousness.

To make statements about consciousness without studying the brain is like talking about cars from only having seen them on the highway. One can appreciate the shape, color, speed, and sounds of cars without knowing how they work. However, that experience of cars is not the whole story.
WBraun

climber
Aug 4, 2013 - 11:43am PT
The battery in your simplified diagram above would be the "source" of consciousness.

The brain is not required for "consciousness" to work.

The battery remains "full" and at potential even with the brain disconnected from the battery (consciousnesses).

This is why people in a coma are not able to communicate in normal ways.

The source of Consciousness is not from the brain but within the heart.

From the heart consciousness works to the brain in full duplex.

Consciousness is not material but simultaneously can work on all the subtle material and spiritual levels.

This is why it is called the soul.

It is scientifically proven .....
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 4, 2013 - 11:50am PT
Here is a snippet from Sagan's book, The Demon Haunted World.

I don't really know what it is doing on an atheist website. It doesn't make any conclusions. It is just his Baloney Detection Toolkit. This part of the book is very useful in any argument:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/saganbd.htm

TV sets vs. the brain? That falls into the category of Special Pleading in the Toolkit.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 4, 2013 - 11:50am PT
Is there a life after Death?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 4, 2013 - 11:51am PT
The source of Consciousness is not from the brain but within the heart.

You keep saying this, Werner. What happens to people who get a heart transplant or have to be hooked up to an artificial heart?
WBraun

climber
Aug 4, 2013 - 11:55am PT
I said from "Within the heart".

Consciousness is NOT the HEART!

Consciousness is NOT MATERIAL!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 4, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
I know! I don't understand, though. I've seen hearts and they look like a blood pump to me.

Frog hearts are interesting. They continue to beat for quite a while after they are out of the body. I know it sounds sicko, but we used to have frog legs at an annual fish fry when I was a kid.

When you say "Whithin the Heart" It does imply that when the heart goes, the spirit goes with it.

I dunno why nobody just admits the simple truth: Consciousness is in the brain. There are endless physical examples of this that were brought up earlier in the thread. A head injury can cause damage to a particular function, so it is easy to figure out which parts of the brain do what. That stuff was settled long ago.

One of my best friends had a massive stroke about 7 years ago. He was on the verge of death for many days, but he survived. The stroke damaged his speech center, and now he has awful aphasia...the inability to speak. At first he made zero sense when trying to communicate, but over time, he has regained enough to carry on regular conversations if you are used to it.

It is interesting because it carries on in his ability to write. He prefers to text me rather than call, but he still has great difficulty finding words to go along with meaning.

So where does the soul or spirit reside in a human? Werner, we've heard from you and you say the heart. I'm interested in what Go-B has to say.

Are we the only animals with a soul? I find this hard to swallow, considering the fact that many animals are obviously self aware and intelligent to a certain degree.

Screw it. I'll come out and say it:

JL is as much of a reductionist as anyone. He regularly talks about right brain/left brain, and he regularly characterizes consciousness in two parts: discursive and non-discursive.

Despite the fact that he is a wordsmith, I've had great difficulty figuring out what he is saying. Am I alone with this difficulty of understanding him?

I was pondering no-thing again yesterday while playing with my dog. I'm curious if no-thing thinking involves shutting down your cognitive faculties and then using only the most primitive part of your mind. My dog is probably less laden with discursive chatter than I am, I think.

A dog's brain has all of the same structures of the human brain.

My dog dreams. I watch her running her feet and yelping while she is sleeping at my feet. She is quite obviously aware, but is she self aware?

It is obvious that "we" exist in our brains. You can amputate your foot and survive. The brain is a very fragile organ.

Fact: The Spirit is not observable. Consciousness is. You can wire somebody's brain and tell when their brain is no longer functioning.

Question: How many of you want to be kept alive for weeks, months, or years, using heart/lung machines, even if your brain shows no activity?

I have an advanced directive saying to pull the plug. Is this immoral?

I would ask JL what he would do, but he never answers a direct question in a direct manner. Go-B: What would you do?

I remind you that this happens all of the time. Families are often forced to make the decision to remove loved ones from life support.

Has the soul or spirit already left the body at that point?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 4, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Here is a WSJ article about various animal brains. Everyone should keep this in mind when placing so much superiority on the human alone.

I'll try to dig up the actual scientific paper.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323869604578370574285382756.html

The part about the chimp who beat the British memory champion is interesting.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Aug 4, 2013 - 01:44pm PT

Blind faith is blind...


EDITED:

also was a decent band...
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