Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Jul 26, 2013 - 12:31pm PT


Dr F KNOWS where the "BEEF" is!!!...

























































Credit: locker
...





















(Sorry man!!! I couldn't fuking resist... LMAO!!!)...

Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Living outside the discursive mind is great if you live in a monastery with all your bodily needs taken care of by servants and charity

You will have to live a life of poverty, since you can't work, nor climb, nor do anything outside the life of the monastery, since you would have no money, so in some ways, your life is over for a cult like existence, that you can justify in your mind as a higher mission in life.
Can anyone call that true freedom? No


But what about the end, will it be worth it?
Not if there isn't an afterlife,
you will not reincarnate into a higher life state or a Buddha, you will not end the endless suffering or karmic cycles for evermore.

That is a choice, sacrifice everything for a Spiritual Cause, or just give in to the laws of nature and humanism.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 26, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Given a hard choice, I will take reason, thinking, and the oh so deviled "discursive" mind over meditation, spiritualism, and intuition all day long.
----


Meditation, spiritualism (what is that, exactly??), and intuition are all approaches. Not to be confused with the subject for the moment - our swirling subjective core, which is totally unavoidable since we live in it all the time.

One way to keep from drowning is to try and objectify the subjective by way of the discursive. That's what most of us do. The limitation here is that we cannot objectify the discursive in the process because objectifying itself, along with all forms of quantifying, requires us to narrow focus on discrete things and quantities, somewhat excluding things outside our focus. So we never get a vista of the whole, only the working parts.

The other way to get a wide view is to disidentify with the content (QUALIA) and detach, including detaching from the imaginary "viewer" itself. This process is known variously as "no mind" and other names and is a process totally foreign to the discursive, which is not being "deviled" here by anyone I have read. It's just that one tool is not sufficient for the whole mo fo.

Also, note the power of the illusion that we "choose" the discrsive. This implies that we can choose otherwise. If you believe that, try and set the discursive down for 60 seconds and see how far you get. This is one of the really persistant ways we bullshit ourselves, believing that we are piloting our rational minds.

JL
WBraun

climber
Jul 26, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Such bullsh!t ^^^^^ coming from Dr F the mental speculator with no clue .....
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.

Good to know I can still get a rise out of the Cultists
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 26, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#312974
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 26, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
JL, and perhaps others:

Doing some research for new courses, I ran across this essay that one might appreciate. The first paragraph after the epitaph presents a good summary of the essay.

http://purlieujournal.com/3/3_zabala.html

Zabala's essay is simple, philosophical, oriented to education, easy-to-read, and clear (I think), although just a tad long. It expresses complaints about analytical philosophy.

Although the article does not discuss discursive-mind activities per se, it does argue that investigations into Being in philosophy have been institutionally subordinated and de-legitimized by the academy, U.S. thinking, and scientism.

The essay is also a response to Stephen Hawking's 2010's declaration that philosophy is dead. (See also http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/27/physics-philosophy-quantum-relativity-einstein);

I initially discovered the author's writings on Al Jazeera's website. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/06/201361082357860647.html
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jul 26, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
A friend of mine pointed out this comic strip on Facebook this morning.

It reminded me very much of this dear thread. I think if you like hanging out here on this thread, you'll enjoy this link. (Really only good on a full sized computer. Really hard to read on a smart phone.)

http://comicsthatsaysomething.quora.com/A-Day-at-the-Park

It is a 16 page graphic novel comic. Precious.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
oriented to education

MikeL:
It's hard for me to take the predicament illustrated by Zabala as being pertinent to anywhere but academia. The good old days when competing philosophical schools waged robust battles behind ivy -lined lecture halls. To the putative Victor went the spoils: western civilization!!
A quick visit to a few online philosophy sites, and yes, there may be a clear preponderance of analytical philosophizing and scientism from time to time, this reflects the times we live in and should be expected.
Take a quick gander at the forum line-up on this philosophy site that I am a member of:

http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/

Other types of philosophy , other than those dominated by modern science ,are doing quite well.

The site in the link above is somehow referred to as a "club"-- probably includes a special secret handshake- - something Largo might be interested in.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 26, 2013 - 06:10pm PT

The site in the link above is somehow referred to as a "club"-- probably includes a special secret handshake- - something Largo might be interested in.


I want one of those funky Fez lids and some kind of signet as well. Then we can really get after it!

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
This ought to look good with the Nehru jacket
The little face will have to do for a signet . At least for now.

Credit: Ward Trotter


Here's my signet:

Credit: Ward Trotter

The motto at top is always to be spoken in a WC Fields voice.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 26, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
Fourtis non Feerocks, my little chickadee.

Ironic, but if we only knew that Largoism, from its obscure and rocky start on an obscure and rocky forum, would eventually become the world religion of the 23rd century.

Stranger things have happened.




Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 26, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
Largoism, from its obscure and rocky start on an obscure and rocky forum, would eventually become the world religion of the 23rd century.


I don't have especially high hopes for my new religion seeminng that the doctrine is based on no-thing at all, the Trinity is swapped out for emptiness, there are no statistical representations of the terrain, feelings/thoughts/sensations et al are considered just ships passing in the night, no High Lama, and the whole blooming thing, God included, is professed to be ungraspible (by the discursive mind).

But I still like the fez, the secret handshake, the signet, and the very special robes, like Dracula maybe.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 26, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
It's hard for me to take the predicament illustrated by Zabala as being pertinent to anywhere but academia. The good old days when competing philosophical schools waged robust battles behind ivy -lined lecture halls.

I'm curious to know what field you are (or have been) in. Where is there not controversy? Where has anyone gotten to the bottom of anything?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 26, 2013 - 11:53pm PT

The other way to get a wide view is to disidentify with the content (QUALIA) and detach, including detaching from the imaginary "viewer" itself.

I think this could be dangerous. As a Christian living on earth, we are taught to come to terms
with all qualia. The good and the bad, the positive and the negative. The "ying and yang" so to speak. To be thankful, not only for the good, but also the bad. Embrace the bad for it is good for us! To learn from.. In Paul's last days of writing, he finally thanked God for "the thorn in his side" instead of cursing Him for it! Paul said that it spurred him on to rebel against evil, and to continue the good fight.

Meditation shouldn't be an escape from some "thing". It should be a face to face duel between the mind and the soul. Quietly controlled. Isn't that what Buddha taught?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 27, 2013 - 02:10am PT
Ward,

My thought above is perhaps cryptic.

All fields of study in university are filled with tempests-in-a-teapot controversies. In and of themselves, they are trivial and irrelevant to anyone outside the departments and colleges in which they occur. However, in time, those controversies have a tendency to work their ways into everyday practices and regular people's lives down the road. Philosophy is nothing special in that regard.

Additionally, I saw a correspondence between (i) what Zambala was talking about (analytical views that tend to favor naive realism, objectivism, materialism, corporatism, instrumentalism, and careerism *versus* timeless issues and personal questions that relate to the human condition and Being), and (ii) what the parties are discussing here on this thread. Zambala was claiming that scientism and the analytical approach (above) had hegemonically and politically crowded out other views that focused on Being, arguing that a focus on Being is an illegitimate and useless topic of discussion in our contemporary age of analytical mental-rationalism. An interest in Being is becoming impossible to talk about, and apparently silly. (Perhaps I'm the only one who sees the parallelism.)

Your experience of being a member on an on-line philosophy forum notwithstanding, 25 years in academia has shown me that the dominance Zambala is talking about is real, pervasive, and deep throughout the academia--especially in this country, and especially in the professions. For the young elite (college-educated) in this country, what gets taught is what shows up.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 27, 2013 - 03:45am PT
Wow,, you got ur fastball down Mikel

Course im jus jestering

Seriously im in awe how this thread keeps getting butter. (I mean better!)
Thanks be given to all cOntributers
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 27, 2013 - 11:05am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#313077

I like the answers first, then the questions!
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 27, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Isn't that what Spyder's comic strip suggested?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 27, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Meditation shouldn't be an escape from some "thing". It should be a face to face duel between the mind and the soul. Quietly controlled. Isn't that what Buddha taught?


Not exactly.

I cannot overstate this: The biggest barrier to understanding any of the subjective stuff mentioned on this thread is that Maike, Jan and I are approaching the issue from an experiential angle FIRST. That is, you do the pracice, for many years, and later you search for words that approximate the terrain in a symbolic way. The other method, if you can call it one, is to try and reckon the terrain BEFORE you have the experiential quotient. That task is basically impossible - we can easily see why. And so you end up with people believing that "detaching" is an attempt to "escape" from something. Think of detaching here in the psychological way that kids individuate away from their parents. They break enmeshment and start to develop no longer fused to any particular person, place of thing.

Put diferently, the motto is to movie neither toward nor away from anything, developing an MO where you have no preference, so when the untoward happens, you can hang in the pocket without dashing off. Like everything else, no one does this perfectly, but being willing to try and live this way goes a long ways in doing so.

I hope to get some time to look over Mike's references this weekend.

JL
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