Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MH2

climber
Jun 8, 2013 - 09:42am PT
But you are looking


You are a good pointer, Werner. I am pretty sure there is more going on than I am aware of.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 8, 2013 - 11:43am PT
In a plot worthy of a crime blockbuster, Gustl Mollath, 56, was submitted to the secure unit of a psychiatric hospital seven years ago after court experts diagnosed him with paranoid personality disorder following his claims that staff at the Hypo Vereinsbank (HVB) Ė including his wife, then an assets consultant at HVB Ė had been illegally smuggling large sums of money into Switzerland.

On first reading this I immediately suspected some degree of collusion between the banking authorities , the court, and the state-run psychiatric institution to have this guy committed and therefore gotten out of the way.
Further reading in the link has confirmed my suspicions. It appears this thing has the potential to mushroom into a major scandal in the state of Bavaria.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 8, 2013 - 11:53am PT
For those interested in the topic of determinism, you might find the following excerpt interesting:

Determinism

I could hold against it that you are not making any free choice at all, but that your choices are already determined by the time you make it. They are determined by the present conditions; that is outer conditions, such as environmental factors, events in your world, external necessities and inner conditions such as your genes, mental state, preferences, habits, and so on. I can also argue from a physicalist point of view:

All decisions happen in your brain. Your brain is a physical object and the processes inside your brain are ultimately physical processes which have causal relationships. This means that a decision can be viewed as a volitional impulse, or a certain brain state T' at a time t' preceded by another brain state T at a time t, and which is explained by the causal relationship T--> T'.

This view is called determinism. If you prefer a less abstract account, you could say that determinism views the universe as a giant machine. Every event in the universe is caused by antecedent events, which are themselves caused by other events, which are again caused by other events. Every event or phenomenon has thus infinite causal tentacles attached to it and each of these tentacles reach endlessly into the spacetime
history of the universe. Human beings including me and you are simply parts of this machine. Whatever you do, whether you sit down on a chair, scratch your head, or blow your nose, is fully determined by antecedent causes and could therefore not have happened otherwise. Hence, free will is an illusion.

Causal determinism argues from the premise that the future is determined by the past. This view is anchored in a mechanistic world view that understands the universe in terms of causal relations. It is illustrated most clearly in the thought experiment of ďLaplace's demonĒ which is named after the 19th century French scientist Marquis de Laplace. The Marquis said in his Essai philosophique sur les probabilitťs, ďWe may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all
forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.Ē More recent developments of chaos theory and statistical randomness are said to posit causal factors in the chain that preclude us knowing the future in any fixed way, but in retrospect, once said factors (all objective) were known and understood, the past could nonetheless be explained mechanically.


Libertarianism

Although Laplace's idea of an ďiron block universeĒ is now obsolete, the determinist argument is still compelling. It is difficult to evade the logic of a linked chain of causes. Yet, a clever debater may juxtapose the causal chains of determinism with chains of free decisions and construct a history of free will. To illustrate this, let's consider the so-called restaurant example. I could say that my choice of lunch is completely free,
except for the limitations given by the menu. For example, I would not be able to order a pizza in a sushi restaurant. The limiting factor can be attributed to my antecedent free choice, namely the choice of the restaurant. Yet, this choice was also partly determined by external factors, such as the proximity of the restaurant and the opening hours.

Again, I could argue that I have previously chosen my location as well
as the time to appear at the location, and so on. What I am doing here, is viewing the same events from a perspective that emphasises volition rather than the external circumstances. I am implying that decisions emanate from me, rather than me being caused to act in a certain way. In other words, my premise is that my decisions are self-caused. Causality cannot be traced back beyond my inner world. The buck stops here. This view is called libertarianism, or rather metaphysical libertarianism in order to distinguish it from political libertarianism.

Metaphysical libertarianism is founded on two assumptions: (1) that human beings are rational agents who posses the capacity of freely choosing one action among various alternatives; (2) that human beings are either exempted from causal determinism, or that causal determinism is not applicable to the mind. There are a few things which speak in favour of this position. For example, it assigns the capabilities of deliberation, self-control, self-moderation, self-guidance, and even self-mastery to human beings. Without these capabilities, human beings would be
pretty much like mindless buoys who believe they can swim, while they are really just bobbing up and down in a deterministic ocean. Most importantly, libertarianism assigns moral responsibility for their actions to human beings. Without moral responsibility, there would be no point in punishing or praising people for their actions. There would be no need for laws. Thus libertarians often defend their position by deconstructing determinism:

Hard determinism, which rejects free will altogether, results in several absurdities. First, the absence of free will contradicts our direct experience. We experience the act of making choices as exercising control over future events. Rationality would be impossible without the capacity of choice. Second, the deterministic view invalidates moral quality of actions and ethical choices, since humans follow a plot and are
therefore not more responsible for their acts as a machine is responsible for processing a program. A compassionate human being is then simply a compassion machine, while a murderer is a murder machine. Third, the deterministic view does not accommodate recursion well, such as self-awareness and reflection. For example, if we act following a causal behaviour pattern, we can say we are trapped in this pattern until we become aware of it. Once we become aware of the cause and effect of
our own behaviour, however, this awareness influences our behaviour, and possibly even changes it persistently. Determinism does not account for this phenomenon. It cannot explain the quantum leap in consciousness required for self-awareness. More generally, it cannot account for the phenomenon of awareness itself.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 8, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
You guys may be interested in this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/is-denial-the-secret-of-humanitys-success/article12428138/
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 8, 2013 - 01:26pm PT

I can imagine a whole range of approaches from Chakras for Christians, to Universal Chakras, to Kundalini for Atheists.

Jan, i have dipped into the realm of chakras through my back, back when I was rowing at UCSB. It REALLY had an energizing and straighting effect in my back and shoulders!
All physical, though it did make me feel really good!

But as a Christian praying in The Spirit and Interceeding with the Holy Ghost, there is NOTHING more profound and moving in my conscious. IME. No chakras to me are a lot like
the experiences I have practicing Tai Chi, and the Iron Lung breathing techniques that open
up blocked energy pathways. It is very exhilarating once you regain flow. The hard part is
keeping unblocked especially in the torturous work of construction.

Praying in The Spirit is somewhat similar to the above description in that Im not always able to connect because of some sorta blockage in my consciousness. Then I must search my mind
and my heart and discover where I am holding onto to some sortof hate or malice or envy
towards my brother or sister and purge this affliction into the Light. And go to my brother
to seek forgiveness. Then repent. And Gods Spirit is ALWAYS standing there with open arms.
And the rejoicing begins. This is the type of Energy release that can entirely change the direction of ones life. Amen.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 8, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Me. You. That's two.

You're being obtuse and clever. It's non-responsive.

Barsalou's work I tried to point you to (more than one) was more germane to problems of transduction.

I know it doesn't matter.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 8, 2013 - 06:05pm PT

As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.

ó Max Planck, 'Das Wesen der Materie', 1944

Can't imagine Max getting much screen time these days with such ideas.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 8, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Seems to sum up everything you've been trying to say all along. Could've saved yourself a lot of time by just posting it right off the bat.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 8, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter

God? Intelligent design? Apparently not our individual minds unless you construe them to be part of a cosmic mind.

Even the great masters wax metaphysical.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 8, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind

finally

after asking multiple times I have the answer of exactly what JL ultimately "believes'

thanks for posting that, it explains a lot to me
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 8, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
Blueblocr-

The New Testament and Christian teachings are full of the number 7 and in every case that I've explored, these correspond to the chakras and how to unblock them. Seven vices, virtues, sacraments, gifts of the spirit, fruits of the spirit, seals, churches, signs, sounds, symbols etc. The book of Revelation is particularly full of them and at one level can be understood as a meditation manual based on the experiences of the Apostle John.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 8, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
jogill-

Thanks for the reference. Needless to say, I like that model. I always knew I was a neo Platonist but a neo Pythagorean is a new concept for me, mathematically challenged as I am! I see an even more interesting book than The Medium, the Mystic, and the Physicist, could be written about Mathemeticians and Meditators.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 8, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
Seems to sum up everything you've been trying to say all along. Could've saved yourself a lot of time by just posting it right off the bat.


finally

after asking multiple times I have the answer of exactly what JL ultimately "believes'

thanks for posting that, it explains a lot to me


Nope. It explains nothng about me whatsoever. The fact that people believe I have a secret God agenda tells me that believe not what I am actually writing, but what they belive. If you don't fit in either a materialists camp, or a religio camp, people seem to struggle with this mightly, since the standard catagories don't wash.

I have made it perfectly clear, as has Mike, and to some extent, Jan, that content, including some mysterious, independent "mind," is not the golden fleece here, but nothing at all, emptiness, the ungrapsable geyser of experience, which all amount to the same thing.

I have said 1,000 times that what I am driving at concerns no beliefs at all. Nor faith. Nor yet a divine power in the traditional sense. How quicklly you rabbits jump onto a carrrot, so long as it fits your projections. That's worth pondering, if you're given to pondering.

Verily, this is Max's view of things. Not my own. I try and look at all perspectives. This is just another of many interesting ones.

So instead of waging your projections on me, why not take a crack at what you believe one of the father's of quantum mechanics was saying here, which is surely based on his life emersed in the tiny world. I won't wager a guess because it's not in my wheelhouse.

JL
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 8, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
Ah Jan - this is right up your alley. You must be familiar with these guys and perhaps this book:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/is-denial-the-secret-of-humanitys-success/article12428138/
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 8, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
I agree...

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ĎMy counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,í

Hebrews 4:13 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.


1020 God, all-knowing
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionary-of-bible-themes/1020-God-all-knowing

The omniscience of God is that attribute by which he knows all things past, present and future. What is hidden from human sight is still known by God. Scripture stresses the wisdom of God in all his actions, and often grounds this in his all-embracing knowledge.

Godís unique self-knowledge within the Trinity

Mt 11:27 See also Jn 10:15; 1Co 2:10-11

The nature of Godís knowledge

Godís knowledge originates within himself Isa 40:13-14 See also Job 21:22; Ro 11:33-34; 1Co 2:16

Godís knowledge is complete Mt 10:30 pp Lk 12:7 See also Ps 147:4; Isa 40:26

God knows things that are hidden from human understanding Dt 29:29 See also Job 37:15-16; Da 2:22; Mt 24:36 pp Mk 13:32; Ac 1:7; 2Co 12:2-4

Godís comprehensive knowledge of people

Godís knowledge of peopleís actions Job 34:21 See also Job 24:23; Job 31:4; Ps 33:13-15; Ps 139:2-3; Jer 23:24

Godís knowledge of peopleís needs Mt 6:8 See also Mt 6:31-32 pp Lk 12:29-30

Godís knowledge of peopleís hearts and minds 1Ch 28:9 Scripture views the heart not primarily as the seat of emotion but more particularly as the seat of the will. See also Ps 44:20-21; Ps 139:1-2; Jer 17:10; Eze 11:5; Heb 4:12-13

Godís knowledge of individuals Ge 20:1-7 Godís knowledge of Abimelechís motives and behaviour towards Abrahamís wife Sarah; 1Sa 16:1-12 the Lord to Samuel regarding Davidís anointing as king; Ac 5:1-10 Godís knowledge of the deception of Ananias and Sapphira

Godís knowledge of peopleís sin Jer 16:17 See also Job 10:14; Ps 69:5; Jer 2:22; Hos 7:2; Am 5:12

Godís foreknowledge

Isa 46:10 See also Isa 42:9; Isa 44:7; Da 2:28

Godís foreknowledge of Jesus Christís passion Ac 2:23 See also Ac 3:18; Ac 4:27-28

Godís foreknowledge of those who would become disciples Ro 8:29 See also Jer 1:5; Ro 11:2; 1Pe 1:2

Godís foreknowledge of peopleís free actions Ps 139:4 See also Ex 3:19; Dt 31:21; 1Sa 23:10-13

Implications of Godís knowledge

Godís knowledge ensures that all will be judged fairly Heb 4:13 See also 1Sa 2:3; Job 34:22-23; Ecc 12:14; Ro 2:16; 1Co 4:5

Godís knowledge ensures that he knows those who are his 2Ti 2:19 See also Nu 16:5; Ex 33:12; Job 23:10
Jn 10:14 See also 1Co 8:3; Gal 4:9; 1Jn 3:19-20; Rev 3:8
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 8, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
What a whirlyjig of ideas, and, like a carousel, when the music stops we remain seated on our favorite wooden horses.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 8, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
Bruce-

I did read that article the first time you referred to it. Of course there have been many works of philosophy and fiction in the past that have also referred to man's intelligence as being his downfall in one way or another. Personally I am less worried about the denial behind global warming wiping out the human race than miscalculations involving nuclear weapons. In both cases, I believe the least resilient members of the species would/will prove to be the most highly educated in the most technological societies, although highly educated humans with an outdoors background will fare better than others.
MH2

climber
Jun 8, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
MikeL,

I am not sure what to make of your statement, "I know it doesn't matter."

If it does not matter to you, likely I cannot change that.

It may matter to me, depending on what you refer to.

I went to Barsalou's Emory University website and looked at his publications. I found nothing to object to. It could well be that I don't understand what is meant by "the problem of transduction" here. Is it one of these uses of the word?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transduction


I am not obtuse nor clever. As I said once before, what you can readily learn from my posts is that I am glib, cryptic, and prone to use cliche.
MH2

climber
Jun 8, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
JL says:


Science is doing a fine job of describing the process by which objects, sensations, thoughts and so forth are being generated in the brain, but the key component in experience, the experiencer/subject, is being left out of the equation.



I don't think that science is leaving the experiencer/subject out of the equation. Under general anesthetic the experiencer/subject is rendered unconscious. You probably know that from personal experience. This points to the experiencer/subject being a part of the nervous system acted on by general anesthesia.
WBraun

climber
Jun 8, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Under general anesthetic the person becomes only unconscious of ones body.

Total consciousness of the individual is not lost.

Otherwise the individual would be dead ......
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