Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jun 6, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Nobody is saving any of this.
You are a blowhard and the kids are not interested in what you have to say,
because they make the new rules and you come across as another just another old fart obnoxious as#@&%e.
okay thanks bye.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
Ok then
I guess goatboy has some problems
There were rules???
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 6, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
until you can get below your individual content (thoughts, feelings, etc.) and into universal terrain

and what is the basis of this "universal terrain"?
what is it that is "universal" among many different individuals?
-


It is interesting to consier how Ed is asking this question because it shoes, I believe, how he expects the subjective to conform to the same rules and criteria of the objective.

For instance, the word "basis" usually means, the bottom of something, considered as its foundation; the principal component of something; some thing on which something else is established or based.

So if I said that consciousness was the "basis," he could then insist as any good physicalist would that the true basis of what I was saying all along is that physical stuff is the basis, since that is what (they believe) "causes," give rise to, underscores or otherwise creates consciousness.

So before I take a crack at this, can you tell me, Ed: Do you already have an idea in your head about this question, and the "right" answer, or the answer you believe to be correct with all your heart and soul. And would that answer be "physicality" is the universal basis for all subjective experience. Then the question becomes, what would it take to convince you otherwise, short of physical evidence?

JL

MH2

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
Just take a crack at it, JL. Forget about Ed, and everyone else.


What do you have?
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Well if everyone wants me to delete it
and no one will support me in not deleting it?

weird
another paradox in humans

I guess I will choose to never delete, just to piss them off.
WBraun

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
Delete it.

Goatboy doesn't know that "Truth" can never ever be deleted, burned, destroyed, cut, etc etc etc.

You can't even make "New" rules.

Rules are set in stone forever.

They can only be adjusted according to time and circumstance by good intelligence.

If one artificially makes "New" rules they will in time crumble just as a bad foundation never holds up .......
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
No, there were no rules except to try and keep it civil
I think some of us learned to debate the issue, rather than attack the person presenting the issue better over the years
WBraun

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
Empirical evidence is always imperfect ......
WBraun

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
Dr F -- "No, there were no rules ..."

I wasn't talking about this thread.

Probably went over your head again ......
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
I wasn't talking to you werner

We can be assured that werner hasn't learned anything from this thread
He already knows everything he needs to know
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 6, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
the difference is I can explain the physics (science), you can't explain your idea... which is fine as far as I'm concerned... but you know when I'm wrong (which seems to be all the time)... it is possible, as you yourself would concede, that I could practice for 10, 20, 50 years and still not get it...


The problem here is that you're assuming that the correct "answer" is something that will satisfy your evaluating mind, re: my explanation will be info that you can evaluate as true or false, according to physical criteria. That would mean I was doing physics, or science. I have stated 100 times that this is not so.

The esoteric arts are not about any of this, and what you continually get hung up on is the notion that what this is all about is merely an "idea" that I arrived at by way of a process, itself the fruit of an evolved brain that creates the mind that provides the experiences. In other words, you are doing your damnest to frame what I am talking about as a thing, a quantifiable or discrete experience or some kind of mental content that squares with your quite rational belief that the eitire thing about us humans can be neatly and entirely explained by biology. This fits neatly into a discursive envelope so long as you overlook the horrendous problems of those thorny transitions from nothng to something, from chaos to self-organizing DNA, from inorganic to organic, from physical to subjective, from meat to self-conscioueness.

One of the first things you come to know about consciousness is that it is the opposite of randomness, and randomness can never achieve what consciousness can accomplish because they are not the same thing. But I'll hold off till tomorrow when I am fresher.

An interesting thing to ponder is that Ed how Ed is holding against me the charge that I cannot explain my "idea" even though I have repeatedly said that the subjective and objective are NOT the same, that the objective concers the external world of discrete things, knowable in a sense, to all, whereas the subjective involves the experiences of the subject, known the subject, and ungraspable (unquantifiable) to those outside the experiential bubble. Now Ed can hardly call the experiential less tangible than the objective since he too lives entirely in his subjective space, for which there is NO escape so long as we are alive. It is no fault of Ed's that he cannot, nor can I, express experience within our given subjective worlds in terms of hards facts and figures. This is simply the way that reality IS. Expecting that I can and should be able to do so, if I really and true knew what I was talkign about, is basically saying that the objective and the subjective are selfsame and can be understood and explained the very same way. That, Ed, is simply not so.

And the basis of consciousness is NOT content or facts and figures not yet biology, but nothing, no thing, void. I'll take a crack at that tomorrow.

JL




MH2

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
What I see in JL's latest post is that he considers a person's subjective experience to be unknowable and ungraspable by another person. He is therefore unable to express to us in any satisfactory way what he is experiencing in his own subjective realm.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 6, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
Ed, some of the things you say I'm saying are a bit beyond what I've actually said. For the record, there is really nothing special in what I've experienced. If there is any difference from what I talk about and what you talk about is that I believe what I'm talking about is empty. If there is a difference in what I see and what you see is that I occasionally see without concepts and frameworks, while you only seem to see through them.

What I see in JL's latest post is that he considers a person's subjective experience to be unknowable and ungraspable by another person. He is therefore unable to express to us in any satisfactory way what he is experiencing in his own subjective realm.

This may disagree with John, but here's my take on this stuff.

1. Experience itself (whether John's or mine) is ungraspable, unstoppable, non-local, multi-dimensional, undefinable, and unresolvable. You can't say just exactly what it is. That makes it inexpressible.

2. Experience IS knowable.

That's the claim. I'm not saying what experience is. I'm saying that I can't say what it is. But I know what it is.

If you want to disagree, then you have to now say what experience is.

That's John's argument as I read it, and it's relatively mild.

I'll make a stronger claim. Forget experience. Nothing is graspable, stoppable, local, single-dimensional, definable, and resolvable. That includes not only what is subjective, but also what is supposedly objective.

If you want to disagree, then you have to now say what anything is completely.

(Hint: you're going to need a more powerful tool than the scientific method to do that.)
WBraun

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
MikeL -- "Nothing is graspable .... "

In your impersonalism feature that may be true.

But beyond the impersonal feature is always personal.

As in; "No-thing IS graspable"

There's NO escape .......

jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 6, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
One of the first things you come to know about consciousness is that it is the opposite of randomness, and randomness can never achieve what consciousness can accomplish because they are not the same thing


Maybe two sides of the same coin?


Priceless.


;>)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 6, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
Ed: then we are both happy. I'm happy to be living my life, and you yours. Cheers.


Werner: (somehow I knew I was going to have to write this)

No thing is "graspable": you can't quite grasp a hold of things empirically or cognitively.

No thing is "stoppable": there is no real control over things; causes and circumstances are not created or controlled by any one or any thing.

No thing is "local"; I'll call this "interdependence"; it means that no thing exists in only one time and space; everything seems to be connected to everything else; the Buddhists call this "dependent origination."

No thing is "single-dimensional": all things exhibit different characteristics at microscopic & macroscopic levels; as well as meaning, size, color, chemical / physical make-up, etc.

No thing is "definable" (except denotatively, perhaps by linguistic convention; dictionary definitions are the worst).

No thing is "resolvable" (no thing ever finally boils down to a single essence or final item).



One more time: all phenomena are empty. We see them apparently manifesting, but we cannot find their existence in any way or in any form that is finally satisfying. We are always left wanting.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
I'll make a stronger claim. Forget experience. Nothing is graspable, stoppable, local, single-dimensional, definable, and resolvable. That includes not only what is subjective, but also what is supposedly objective.

Imagine serious investigators of nature taking this sort of approach: people would still be dropping like flies from Bubonic Plague.
This is serious delusional nihilism at its most delusional, and nihilistic.

Post -modernism in noticeable ineffectual decline in the 21st century.

An unconvincing attempt to distill a personal nihilistic mood congruent mythology into a blueprint of human consciousness.
What next ? Existential Quantum Flux?


Empirical evidence is always imperfect ......

Hey, the only thing close to perfect was the town where the Stepford wives lived.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 7, 2013 - 06:51am PT
Imagine serious investigators of nature taking this sort of approach: people would still be dropping like flies from Bubonic Plague.

The Bubonic Plague would have ran its course, as does everything Ward, irrespective of human interventions. Just what is it that you think you or Man controls?

Your decisions? Recent research indicates that cognitive activity milliseconds prior to a conscious act of making a decision. (Oops, was that free will that just fell out of your hands?)

Your behaviors? Give me a break. You and the rest of us find ourselves doing things that we have no control over whatsoever (instinct, emotions, thoughts, insights, apprehensions).

Social events or problems? Good lord, what real social problem do you want to point to that's been nothing but the indication of complete failure? The banking industry? Healthcare? Education? Poverty? War?

Physical dynamics? Sure. Try exercising control over gravity.

And you think I'm living in a dream world? HA! You might as well be a metal ball rolling around in a pin-ball machine. Shakespeare and the Greeks articulated the lament over and over and over.

[Regarding the complaint that empirical evidence is always imperfect]: the only thing close to perfect was the town where the Stepford wives lived.

This tends to be one of the dumbest positions an honest intellectual / searcher can take. "I know it's not true, but it's pretty good." Right, that makes you a technician, a pragmatist, and bougeoise. You need to find another thread. We're trying to do some heavy lifting here, my friend.

"Close enough" may work for hand grenades and nuclear weapons, but the issues here require some nuance and focus. At the base of these conversations, we're trying to find what is authentic. That's another word for Truth.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 7, 2013 - 07:21am PT
What next?
A trip report from the luminiferous aether perhaps
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 7, 2013 - 07:21am PT
Just like in science, God also has His moral laws!...

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Romans 14:10 ,For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:
“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

...without God we are nothing!
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