Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 15401 - 15420 of total 22821 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Thanks, MikeL. Solo climbing (Bachar, Honnald, at al) is a fairly spectacular example of style on a level with difficulty or technical achievement. When a number of participants press against the confining edges of difficulty style is fundamentally another arrow in one's athletic quiver, another means to distinguish among top runners.

ghastly mix of metaphors . . .

;>|
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
"Since God is completely unknown and eternally silent, He can be endowed with whatever traits one elects to hang upon Him."

True? ... and according to some ten-masters - every single trait we hang upon Him/Her/It/..., is just as true as anything sciences has taught us about life and the earth...
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
Thanks, Marlow.


God, as made by man, reflects what Man is, unknown to himself. The faith in God and the belief in miracles are closer to the truth than science can provide. Our problem is that we believe that reason, logic, and science will take us to the Good. It not only won't; it can't.

It is impossible to respect the dignity of man and be scientific. (Reason cannot even defend itself theoretically.) Reason has only determined that all cultures are founded by and on Gods. Outside of reason is everything glorious. There Must Be religions of some sort, but reason cannot found them. There is an inner necessity for us to abandon reason on rational grounds, otherwise our regimes are done. (Nietzsche)

Reason is only one part of the Soul and requires a balance of other parts (those found in the last paragraph that I wrote in the last post), otherwise humanity is impoverished. Climbers should know that better than most.

No one wants to face the possibility that bourgeois vulgarity might really be the nature of people, always and everywhere.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
MikeL

Has anybody taken the standpoint that descriptive data collected by help of the skilled use of scientific method can be used to make value statements? I have not.

But if you make a value statement - science can often be of value when you act to realise the value, when you make a choice between alternatives.

An example: Value statement: If you jump from a mountain a good thing is to survive. Choice: Do I jump without a parachute and pray to God to help me survive or do I jump with a parachute?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
De la Lastra's Corollary:
"After an access cover has been secured by 16 hold-down screws, it will be discovered that the gasket has been omitted."
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
Marlow:

On the first, No. Not that I'm aware of. I don't see how anyone could.

Yes, I would say the second part is correct.


"After Buddha was dead, people
showed his shadow for centuries afterwards in a
cave,—an immense frightful shadow. God is dead:
but as the human race is constituted, there will
perhaps be caves for millenniums yet, in which
people will show his shadow.—And we—we have
still to overcome his shadow!"

(This might get some crawlies scurrying.)

The religious experience is more important than God. May we have at that.

Be well, my literate friend.


(I'm in an odd mood.)
WBraun

climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 12:33am PT
The religious experience is more important than God.

It's the other way around.

God is the source of everything.

And ..... Buddha never died.

It's impossible for an eternal being to ever die.

It's never ever been done nor can it be done.

Those who do not understand the science of the soul are always wrong and bewildered by the Truth ......

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 24, 2013 - 12:57am PT
The religious experience is more important than God.

No I think he's onto something. The religious experience IS god.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 01:01am PT
Yes that's good too. DMT.

Just see .... this man DMT has good brain .....
jstan

climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 01:12am PT
Thanks, MikeL. Solo climbing (Bachar, Honnald, at al) is a fairly spectacular example of style on a level with difficulty or technical achievement. When a number of participants press against the confining edges of difficulty style is fundamentally another arrow in one's athletic quiver, another means to distinguish among top runners.

ghastly mix of metaphors . . .

Fascinating! Spoken by a person who made style and technical talent indistinquishable. You look at Pat's film and you see John floating gracefully up the rock. Style they say. Certainly, very graceful and controlled. Then you look at the holds. He was doing a one arm on a fingertip.

Style no longer fully describes the achievement.

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 24, 2013 - 10:17am PT
Psalm 127:1 Unless the Lord builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the Lord guards the city,
The watchman stays awake in vain.
2 It is vain for you to rise up early,
To sit up late,
To eat the bread of sorrows;
For so He gives His beloved sleep.
3 Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord,
The fruit of the womb is a reward.
4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior,
So are the children of one’s youth.
5 Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them;
They shall not be ashamed,
But shall speak with their enemies in the gate.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#312729
...God is the Great Zen archer (pulling the string), you are His arrow!



Psalm 118:15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation
Is in the tents of the righteous;
The right hand of the Lord does valiantly.
16 The right hand of the Lord is exalted;
The right hand of the Lord does valiantly.
17 I shall not die, but live,
And declare the works of the Lord.
18 The Lord has chastened me severely,
But He has not given me over to death.
19 Open to me the gates of righteousness;
I will go through them,
And I will praise the Lord.
20 This is the gate of the Lord,
Through which the righteous shall enter.

21 I will praise You,
For You have answered me,
And have become my salvation.

22 The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This was the Lord’s doing;
It is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day the Lord has made;
We will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I pray, O Lord;
O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.
27 God is the Lord,
And He has given us light;
Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar.
28 You are my God, and I will praise You;
You are my God, I will exalt You.

29 Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!
For His mercy endures forever.



Proverbs 24:3 Through wisdom a house is built,
And by understanding it is established;
4 By knowledge the rooms are filled
With all precious and pleasant riches.

.11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death,
And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.
12 If you say, “Surely we did not know this,”
Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it?
He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?

13 My son, eat honey because it is good,
And the honeycomb which is sweet to your taste;
14 So shall the knowledge of wisdom be to your soul;
If you have found it, there is a prospect,
And your hope will not be cut off.

21 My son, fear the Lord and the king;
Do not associate with those given to change;
22 For their calamity will rise suddenly,
And who knows the ruin those two can bring?



1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.


...your mind is your house, build it upon Christ and give thanks to God, clean your windows and take out the trash!


MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 24, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
I'm stuck with words, Werner. If I needed to write the Absolute, I'd have to write Everything. I think about who I'm talking / writing to, and what I think needs to be said at the time. I'm always wrong. I can't help it.


I'm going to disagree with jgill and jstan (as imprudent as that might seem) about style versus technical achievement. Distinctions add clarity.

Style is primarily an expression of centeredness, at being at-one-ment with an environment. Whereas it takes Will to achieve physically daunting objectives, it is not Will that seems to be needed to produce grace, poise, or style in HOW an objective is achieved.

Will and raw courage does not create or express beauty in the world. Aplomb, elan, style seem more descriptive of a way of being, not a way of doing.

Being is more meaningful than doing. One can't measure being.


EDIT: We are "human beings." We are not "human doings."
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
So far all we have of " style" thus far is a collection of supererogatory ( my spell checker just offered "superhero gators" for that one) intentions that are more or less completely defined by " will", since they are not required within the context of difficulty, and do not arise naturally but are superimposed .

I am thinking specifically of a climber bouldering , for instance.
This fully qualifies as a distinction that produces clarity:
The boulderer is engaged in an effort that has a well- defined goal ,namely, reaching the top of the boulder. This is what could be termed a natural outcome.

A native from the interior of New Guinea , never having been exposed to bouldering as such, could pretty much get the goal of the boulderer, in fairly short order.
If the same native were taken to a gymnastic meet he would be hard pressed to discern a similar goal --without being offered a somewhat lengthy explanation.
The goals at the meet would be more abstract: the product of a series of algorithmic routines.lol
The need for the evolution of style in athletic endeavor derives from the abstract nature of the activity that requires it.
An ice skaters goal is the completion of a series of movements . Our native would not know when something was accomplished or achieved without explanation. On the other hand if he is taken to view a 100m sprint , or a high jump- no explanation is required , he gets it.

Style as a consideration in athletics rises in proportion to the abstract nature of the activity.
It is a measuring tool that is required to make ever finer measurements to assess achievement and performance in light of the conspicuous absence of natural goals.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 24, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Just see .... this man DMT has good brain .....

:-) I appreciate that but its not true Werner. I'm a stupid American too.

I worship American Gods.



A decent synopsis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gods

And this god has his American persona, too, as manifest in this very thread:

Anansi, a trickster spider-man from African folklore. He often makes fun of people for their stupidity, a recurring aspect of his personality in his old stories.

American Gods is an amazing novel. Not for everyone though (and I don't mean to be condescending, its rather self-deprecating, but you'd have to be familiar with the novel to understand)

DMT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 24, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
MikeL

Some thoughts that could be of value or not.

Communicative styles - domination, problemsolving, compromise, adaption and avoidance: You, Largo, WBraun and Jan.

MikeL: You change style. I think you change between them all. And each one of them have got it's strengths and weaknesses. I think it is the teacher in you that makes you change to be able to connect. At the same time I think you're not always conscious about what you want to achieve when you change style, which might leave you in confusion. Maybe you are a true searcher.

Largo: Largo seems to be changing style at times, but it's superficial. He is in the domination mode, he has concluded beforehand and he pretends to be learning. When he is confused it is because his facts does not lead to his preconclusion. When that happens he pretends to have been joking or another act of escaping. Largo is in many ways the LEB of philosophy on this thread and the Mind thread.

WBraun: WBraun seems to always be knowing where he is. He is acting from a whole and quite consistent framework of thought. He is in the domination mode most of the time.

Jan: Jan is like MikeL changing between the communication styles quite often. She seems to be conscious about what she wants to achieve when she changes. And like WBraun she seems to be working from a quite consistent framework of thought which seldom leaves her confused. Her framework is also rich on perspectives. She's often a good role model.

My two cents.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Will and raw courage does not create or express beauty in the world

War Admiral. Style, beauty , grace, good looks , athletic prowess
Credit: Ward Trotter

Seabiscuit: no style, ungainly, somewhat ugly by comparison, awkward, the proverbial underdog.

Credit: Ward Trotter




" once a horse gives Seabicuit that old look-in-the-eye he begins to run to parts unknown"

Seaboscuit's victory at Pimlico in 1938 was beautiful .
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 24, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
My favourite: Red Rum

Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Jul 24, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
My father-in-law, Richard Beasley, rode trainer Mel Stute’s first
winner at the Los Angeles County Fair in Pomona—long
before it was called Fairplex Park.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Fairplex Park.

I pass right by there on the Link train. (LA metrolink)

They have concerts there when the LA county fair is in town.
They set up the stage near where the post gate normally is.
Saw Al Green there once and The Righteous Brothers the next year.

Have some friends who knew Corey Nakatani's family-- he grew up in a tough family in Covina. His younger sister was murdered early in his career. His Japanese father had been in an internment camp during WW2

Tough kid. Channeled his anger into a brutal sport.
Great Jockey though



Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 24, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
Largo: Largo seems to be changing style at times, but it's superficial. He is in the domination mode, he has concluded beforehand and he pretends to be learning. When he is confused it is because his facts does not lead to his preconclusion. When that happens he pretends to have been joking or an other act of escaping. Largo is in many ways the LEB of philosophy on this thread and the Mind thread.
--

Sometimes I have a hard time understanding you Marlow, possibly because your English is strangely phrased.

What your probelem is, I trust, is you're not used to hearing anyone but science types make declarations of any kind, believing as you do that they are the only one who have the "facts" to back up declarations. You lack the experiences to understand differently, so I honestly don't hold it against you. How would you otherwise know? You couldn't. That's the challenge Mike, Jan and I have in presenting some of our ideas. The data was not arrieved at through discursive means, and that's a concept largely lost on those here, who assume anything non-discursive must be intuitive, fuzzy felings, beliefs, or whatever, as opposed to knowing.

While you accuse me of posturing in terms of "learning," I have noticed that you have never asked a single honest qustion, the earmark of someone wanting to learn, and instead are content to toss out things in a transparent passive-aggresive fashion, always aiming at undermining credibility. That's a sneaky game, Marlow, and I'd wager you've learned little to nothing in meantime. I'm afraid you'll have to return to that coner and think it over. I'd expect a little more from a jazz lover.

I've only been confused here in believing that people were actually interested in exploring things beyond the discursive or evaluating mind. In that case I was confused and mistaken indeed. This thread has all the markers of an old-farts club, with me leading the way, mistaken as I was that it was otherwise.

JL

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