Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:12am PT

Yes it did

Upon reflection. And reading my bible, i see where i was wrong! Sorry Norton!!

Thanks Klimmer!!!!

It is so Beutiful!

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:27am PT
This was a fantastic paragraph!

Put differently, mention of ultra discursive forays are automatically trargeted as threats to sanity and reason, and are the targets of our most fantastic projections - wu wu, intuitive, fuzzy feelings, way-out ideas, Nehru coats, etc. - none of which are themselves ultra material, but rather so much white noise and mental hand wringing from the matrix itself. Then once we start placing virtue on staying put, we not only have the fossilized mental looping consistant with old farts, but we're so trapped by our own devices that the jailer, so to speak, can thrown away the key.

But how does this conjuncture with trying to teach a 7 yro multiplication, after they just learned addition and have a resilience toward something new ( known, different )?

Seems natural for the brain to not want to change its path?

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:51am PT
I've been wanting to say this for a long time: your characterization of two minds is probably a poor but worthy attempt.

That's your characterization, BASE, not mine. You should watch your projections. The best way is to ask questions.

There is only one mind. People often mistake the evaluating/discursive aspect as our "real" mind. And everything else (intuition, feelngs, sensations, et al) are involuntary "things" or content.

Mind itself has no inherent content (empty). That's why I have said that trying to get there or wrangle same at the level of the discursive is the surest way to never leave the launching pad.

But you can have a fun time talking arging about it, the unconscious design being that you never leave GO but keep spinning in place.

Questions can start to spring you. But it it won't be anyone's answers that do the magic.

Paradoxically, a solid way to get beyond the discursive is directly throgh it. But that's not easy work, and involves massive questioning which people on this thread are - it would seem - constitionally incapible of doing, which is why I left off with that angle. As they say: What was I thinking?

But getting back to the Nehru coat . . . LOL Those were some fun exchanges. The whole wu wu voodoo shuck and jive horsefeathers magic fuzzy feelings magic lantern gini mummy dust mojo Master Gizmo rap. And all that.


Jul 20, 2013 - 08:35am PT
BTW, Base, the characterizations I made about the working and thinking mind are just metaphors, at best. Secondly, they may not be Largo's characterizations. There is a base awareness underneath all that doesn't move. Sort of like silence.

(Hey, . . . "Base 104" could refer to that!)

Somewhere out there
Jul 20, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Blowbacker - That's funny, you forgot a couple of words..

Religion says do good, recieve good. Works on the earth. But that's not neccisarily how it works in the spiritual world.

The words you forgot are "my" and "imaginary" - spiritual world.


Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 20, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
Upon reflection. And reading my bible, i see where i was wrong! Sorry Norton!!

that's ok, Blue, Forgiveness is Divine

I know my bible pretty damn good

how about this one?

"Comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable"
(Very New Testament)

Jul 20, 2013 - 03:33pm PT

Ha ha ha ha ha. Good one.

Hebrews 1:3
Jul 21, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
The creation is nothing compared to Him who created it...

Psalm 145
The Lord Extolled for His Goodness.

A Psalm of Praise, of David.

1 I will extol You, my God, O King,
And I will bless Your name forever and ever.
2 Every day I will bless You,
And I will praise Your name forever and ever.
3 Great is the Lord, and highly to be praised,
And His greatness is unsearchable.
4 One generation shall praise Your works to another,
And shall declare Your mighty acts.
5 On the glorious splendor of Your majesty
And on Your wonderful works, I will meditate.
6 Men shall speak of the power of Your awesome acts,
And I will tell of Your greatness.
7 They shall eagerly utter the memory of Your abundant goodness
And will shout joyfully of Your righteousness.

8 The Lord is gracious and merciful;
Slow to anger and great in lovingkindness.
9 The Lord is good to all,
And His mercies are over all His works.
10 All Your works shall give thanks to You, O Lord,
And Your godly ones shall bless You.
11 They shall speak of the glory of Your kingdom
And talk of Your power;
12 To make known to the sons of men Your mighty acts
And the glory of the majesty of Your kingdom.
13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And Your dominion endures throughout all generations.

14 The Lord sustains all who fall
And raises up all who are bowed down.
15 The eyes of all look to You,
And You give them their food in due time.
16 You open Your hand
And satisfy the desire of every living thing.

17 The Lord is righteous in all His ways
And kind in all His deeds.
18 The Lord is near to all who call upon Him,
To all who call upon Him in truth.
19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him;
He will also hear their cry and will save them.
20 The Lord keeps all who love Him,
But all the wicked He will destroy.
21 My mouth will speak the praise of the Lord,
And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.

...for Saving Grace is by His Son, JESUS!

Behold, A Reaper Went Forth to Reap
Sunday, July 21, 2013
(Galatians 6:7-9) It may seem obvious that whatever you sow is what you're going to reap, but it's that very principle that Paul had to teach to the churches of Galatia.


Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 21, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
"Comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable"


remember, even Jesus lost his temper in the temple now and then......

love ya back, my friend Gobee!

Boulder climber
Jul 21, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Some qualitative research that I've attempted has suggested that style is more significant and evolved than achievement, Jgill

Interesting idea, MikeL. Perhaps you could give an example or two from your research.

I tried to equate style with difficulty half a century ago in my approach to bouldering, but that approach was rarely adopted by others. In artistic gymnastics form and grace, apparent ease of performance, was critical to the grading process, reflected in the fact that in national (and I suppose international) competition one had to do two routines on the apparatus: a fairly simple compulsory and an original. As in figure eights in ice skating, the compulsory was almost entirely artistic performance. Then over the years, difficulty began to win out, and now judges are allowed to compensate for a less-than-stellar performance if the routine has great difficulty. Compulsories are ancient history. Consequently, on the rings one watches planche after planche after Maltese cross, sometimes a bit shaky, but given high scores. Sometimes it's not pretty, but the scores are way up there.

This example may not be precisely what you have in mind, but it occurred to me after reading your post.

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 21, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
There is only one mind.

So why the heck do you constantly bitch about the "discursive mind"?

Bitching? Once again, check your projections. Simply making clear the limitations of our rational minds does not equal bitching about it. I can't long jump the Grand Canyon, but I don't bitch about it.

Discursive and evaluating functioning is just that: a function within the greater mind. In a wholistic sense, it is artificial to isolate out the discursive from the total package, but for most it is the ony way for people to see past it. As mentioned, the discursive is itself oftentimes the workhole beyond.


The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 21, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
So is the implication that these "limitations" are something that the non-discursive mind transcends?
Or is it more along the lines of Stephen Jay Gould's "non-overlapping magisteria"???

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 21, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
I vote for non overlapping magesteria or perhaps unrecognized magesteria in the case of the subjective or unconscious aspects of the mind.In fact I more and more have come to think that meditation is really about exploring the hidden parts of the mind in a non discursive and therefore more efficient way. Psychoanalysis seeks to explore them through the discursive (analyzing dreams for example). That is helpful but the problem, well known in academia at least, is that the discursive mind after many years of psychoanalysis can describe in excruciating detail how it got messed up but is unable to change. Meditation, spirituality, and yes religion, are more effective in my experience, at actually bringing about change and therefore relief for most people.

I think there is much research to be done by discursive minds as to what exactly are the techniques of transformation and how they fit in with neurobiology and evolution. There's an interesting editorial in the New York Times in fact, about the need to reform the social sciences along these lines.

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 21, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
Here it is:


Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 21, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
Just teach.

Tried that and it didn't work. No one was interested in doing anything but safeguarding their fixed beliefs or discursively grinding on ideas. That's fine. No harm in that but we tend to jog in place when we do so. That's how it goes with the aging demographic. We all are adverse to anything new.

I don't enter into conversations here, I just dash things off, so my on-line "personality" is basically just little shots at things. If you ever spent any time around the Zen tradition you'd recognize the curt way things are done. There is no attack meant. When I say, "check your projections," this is not a jab, but a simple obserevation. You keep projecting what you think I'm saying rather than asking questions. I have no problems in trying to answer questions. If I can. But my answers are not going to be info that you can grind on but ways in which you can come to directly experience what we are talking about. Everyone here is plenty smart enough to get to the heart of it all if they just got on the righ track.

I'll cut no one any slack here because they cut me none. And the reason I know about the discursive mind is through applied practice on the subject, not owing to a bunch of fancy degrees. We all have stacks of these and so what.

And Cintune, it is not the discursive mind that transcends itself, or however you out it. The point is to bust out of the discursive altogether, at least in the "intake" phase.

But per BASE's question: Basically, the evaluating (discursive) mind is a function of how we focus, though few of us have any wherewithal or even knowlege of how focus actually works.

Remember that the last time I began down this road I was accused of being up on a soap box with a Nehru coat on selling Koolaid, LOL, so for now, just understand that the evaluating mind is simply that part of the mind that responds to a narrowing focus onto things that we isolate out of the whole, be it a rock or a color or a song or (fill in the blank). The "things" that we isolate out represent the "figure" in the old Gestalt language; the background stuff is the "ground."

The figure receives the bulk of our awarenes and focus, and is that person, place or thing on which we are "paying attention." It's what our discursive minds are "on." Payign attention requires us to dial our focus down from infinity - as with the aperature on a camera - to a discrete mental focal length, so to speak. That's because to sic our discursive minds onto something we need to choose a "thing" since we can only conecentrate or focus well on one thing at a time.

That is, we can, in a sense, only evaluate one hold at a time, which requires us to limit our focus and attention to said hold.

Imagine you are watching a horse race. You can watch the pack, but not the whole stadium at the same time. You can watch the lead steed, but not the pack with any real focus. Each time we dial down the focue to smaller increments we largely do so at the exclusion of all else. So just notice how our focus is like the aperature on a camera, going from infinity (totally open focus - almost impossible to hold without massive practice), down to concentrating on a bug or an atom. These are metaphors, but we use them like Hilbert space - that is, as models that can help our undertanding and give us a handle on how to become conscious of the otherwise unconsciousness machinery of mind.

Is that clear so far?


Jul 22, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
It sounds easy, but men could only recognize 2.8 of the colors.

Gym climbing has motivated me to take a remedial color recognition class.

Boulder climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
Paying attention requires us to dial our focus down from infinity - as with the aperture on a camera - to a discrete mental focal length, so to speak

Nice descriptions. A good post, JL.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
You all need to get some focus

Jul 23, 2013 - 11:17am PT

Solo climbing is one example of style subordinating achievement. Any competition that includes style as a factor of excellence ("arete" in Greek) is a move in that direction. But there still exists disparate objectives in most competitive arenas where a sense of style is required.

In my professional domain, people are increasingly asking more of organizations than just financial performance. People are asking that organizations be ethical. Additionally, people are expressing admiration of organizations that embody or create style, and they are rewarding them for it (e.g., Apple).

The drive to measure (as has been discussed more than a few times here on this thread, at least by Largo) is an indication of the degree to which a mental-rational view of reality has predominated our thinking and view of reality.

Generally, when a person shows themselves or others that they can attain technical achievements, then what? More technical achievement?! More technical achievement seems to satisfy one for a while, but it also brings diminishing returns with it. What comes next is style. Style appears to be the next stage of development in unfolding (but style is not the end of the line in development of being).

That you found (and seem to complain of) technical difficulty subordinating style is a testament to the extent to which these characteristics have become to predominate our way of being: measurement, reason, calculation, science, instrumentalism, conviction, relativism, deliberation, egalitarianism, democracy, logic, mathematics, thinking, usefulness, modernity, social peace, abstraction, definitions, safety, generalization, cool rationalism, rights, accommodation, means, the mundane, personality, life, self-interest, order, property, moderation, consensus, law, anxiety, egoism, order, prosperity, consciousness, materialism, etc. These characteristics tend to define contemporary Man and his societies--and his aspirations.

What opposes these? Values, culture, visions, art, heroes, God, human aspirations, heart, soul, creativity, mystery, great passions, doubt / skepticism, religious experiences, uniqueness, folk mind, death, great men and women, ambiguity, nobility, taste, brilliance, paradox, glory, war, chaos, awareness, primitive feelings, taboos, action, intuition, indeterminacy, absolutism, deeds, perfection, danger, nonconformity, contrast, humor, hot, salvation, truth, virtue, genius, extremes, demonic beings, good & evil, dignity, decisions, history, faith, unconsciousness, authenticity, commitment, poetry, charisma, ends, the sacred, etc. All of these appear to be out-dated values contemporarily.


Hebrews 1:3
Jul 23, 2013 - 11:30am PT


Jesus - Son of God, Son of man, Creator, Redeemer, Friend.

Came down from Heaven of virgin birth, to show us the Father and His love for man.

Foretold by Moses and the Prophets, He is Life and the Light of man.

The temptations of the devil could not sway Him,

for from before the foundation of the world He chose us,

that we would be holy and blameless before Him,

washed clean by His blood, the Lamb of God, the gospel of salvation.

The message of truth, redeemed, predestined, adopted as sons,

God's own possession, by the kind intention of His will, to the praise of His Glory forever, Amen.

And sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, that fellowship, grace,

and love be with us all, that is lavished on us in Him!

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