Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 18, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
It's unfortunate that Intelligent Design is a ploy by creationists to advance their anti-Darwinian ideas, when there might be some interesting metaphysical speculation about the concept devoid of biblical influences. The mathematical universe concept, mentioned previously, might include the provision that ID is the mathematical framework underlying the physical cosmos.

Merely speculating.
MH2

climber
Jul 18, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
I'll happily speculate about intelligent design. I think it was initially an argument that animals and plants are so complex and so well-adapted to the niche they inhabit that they could only have been created by design. The designer would be an all-knowing (how's THAT for intelligent?) God.

The theory of and evidence for natural selection and the evolution that it drives has largely usurped the force of intelligent design as an hypothesis for why living things are the way they are.

We could still ask why the physical world is the way it is. However, at the same time we would like an answer that is simple. Some people may feel that proposing an intelligent source for the design of our universe is a simple answer, but in fact that approach raises questions about the source of the designing intelligence. Intelligent design by itself doesn't have any explanatory power. We would be in the position of a child asking our parents a question and being told, "Because I said so."

Another issue is that what we call intelligence is actually skill in gaining advantage over the physical or social circumstances that limit our success. Intelligence is self-interest in sheep's clothing. Or it can be wolf-like if it thinks it can get away with it. What would be the motivation for creating a universe? This all-knowing entity is lonely? Otherwise incomplete? Doesn't fit any description I can come up with other than unknowable, so we don't learn anything anyway.

It does feel like math is capable of so much that it could easily generate a universe or an infinity of them. Ed has mentioned an hypothesis that our math is generated by physics. There is definitely a thing going on between those lovebirds math and physics.



MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:43am PT
Gosh, so many interesting things to pick from . . . .

becoming airborne once again. . . but more literate and entertaining

Some qualitative research that I've attempted has suggested that style is more significant and evolved than achievement, Jgill. I think we're all way oversold on objectives and goals. Style . . . is another matter. Sure attainment is all well and good, but there seems to be something even more profound in a developmental or evolutionary sense. Grabbing on to the universe, wrestling it to the ground, having one's own way with it seems almost childish or immature by comparison. Creating artistry with one's own way of dancing with the universe, with one's own being, . . . well, that's beauty and timeless in my eyes.

. . . . raised in the 60s and have already "seen and done all that,"

Count me in! Dropped more acid in late 60s than a freshman chemistry student. But those experiences never told me that I had "seen and done all that." Quite the opposite, at least for me.

the . . . time to do battle

Jan, I feel the need to put on battle armor when I feel that it's time to confront myself with the force and fury of Vajrapani. It's the most difficult battle of all, as Largo says time and time again. It's like taking Owsley acid . . . way f*cking scary but immensely exciting IMO. (May Stanley Owsley rest in peace.) Death is the great leveler, however it comes. The big death is the death of the body. The little death is the death of the beliefs we hold dear--the worst or most significant is our sense of an independent and autonomous self. (You don't need to be told this, Jan . . . I'm just waxing philosophical.)

I'll happily speculate about intelligent design.

Me, too. Especially without all of the errant baggage.

Isn't it eerie just how fitting everything appears to be?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:19am PT
jstan

climber
Jul 19, 2013 - 11:21am PT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 19, 2013 - 11:23am PT
Behold the poison of religious fanaticism:

Virginia GOP Gubernatorial Candidate Wants To Outlaw Oral Sex, Even For Married Couples

He wants to Taliban oral sex! Pee wee, is my guess.

DMT
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2013 - 11:38am PT
Oral sex is considered sodomy in Biblical Law
so it must be outlawed in the Christian states, like God would want
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
The little death is the death of the beliefs we hold dear

Hmmm . . . I think the French have a different definition of "little death"

One that is enjoyable rather than depressing!

;>)
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 19, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
the bible says almost nothing about oral sex

this is one of the only mentions, and appears to have no problem with it

Song 2:3, "Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the young men. In his shade I took great delight and sat down, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 19, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
Norton. That is about fruit, not oral sex.

Let's be literal and precise.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 19, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
JL,

I've been wanting to say this for a long time: your characterization of two minds is probably a poor but worthy attempt.

We use both types of mind, as you and Mike described them. They are both clicking away constantly. I suppose that you find value in concentrating on suppressing the "discursive mind" through meditation. I could meditate my ass off and never be able to reach that raw experience that I got the first time I jumped El Cap. It is so far out there that it is impossible to explain to an Earth Person.

Usually when we look at a complex system, which is what the brain is, we try to characterize it into categories, much like reductionism. You are applying reductionist methods when you start to break down the mind into different parts, such as right/left, discursive, etc. This method is usually productive when trying to understand components of a complex system. You have to start somewhere.

Many areas of interest have what are called "lumpers and splitters". The lumpers group things together while the splitters break things up into a zillion components. In reality, it is a spectrum, and while it may be useful to break that spectrum into parts to discuss it, they become arbitrary at some point.

After reading Mike's characterization of the discursive mind, I have been thinking about it as I work. I'm all zoned in correlating strata over vast distances and doing my own characterization of depositional environments and the resulting reservoir rocks and the behavior of differing accumulations.

It takes a lot of concentration, but as I click away I notice that I'm listening to music, odd thoughts pop up, and basically there is a very intuitive action going on as I work. I would not call that action discursive using your definitions. It is the other mind. Every now and then it stands up and slaps me up the side of my noggin.

When we are awake, we are constantly dealing with direct stimulus on one hand, and on the other hand your mind is doing something very different in the "background." I assume that this background is what you and Mike try to isolate and experience in a distilled state.

We all do this all of the time. I've had plenty of out of the blue Ah hah! moments that just popped into my mind.

I find that useful. When I am working an area, there are probably 10 other geologists working it at the same moment, and hundreds have looked at the same data that I am seeing. Rarely I have had Eureka moments. I'm doing something and out of the blue a light bulb goes off. It may be something that I did decades ago, and suddenly I get this realization that comes from over the outfield fence. I'm not consciously thinking about it at all. It just pops up.

These are really interesting and I must write them down, because they are very much like dreams. When I awake from a dream, the memory of it fades very rapidly, and these moments are similar.

Keep a pencil and paper around.

I will say that characterizing the mind is tricky business. It is popular to use devices such as left/right brain function, when it is almost certainly far more complicated than that. I suspect that your splitting thought into two categories will also turn out to be an artificial line. The truth will end up being far more complicated.

Characterization is always a sketchy problem with complicated systems. I have little doubt that the mind is far more complicated than two or three basic domains. I feel like the mind is far more complicated than this.

I'm Be Here Now as much as anyone. Sometimes an experience is raw clarity, like stepping off of a big building at 3:00am. Man. If I could bottle that up and sell it, I would be the wealthiest man on the planet.

It feels good. I've never been able to find it anywhere else, and even BASE jumping got boring sometimes. I had an experience like that when I got charged by a griz once. No conscious thought. Just awareness and action. Maybe Mike and you can get to that level of awareness by meditating.
MH2

climber
Jul 19, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Good thoughts, BASE104.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
Seems like everybody had a little time away, hopefully to reflect, and allow thoughts to pool and emotions to simmer..

It's really just another way to hunker down into an old fart kind of stasis, replete with smugness, surity, and the garden variety grousing about the "other guy," who is always (fill in the blank). It's how us old folks often act when faceed with anything "new," or posturing as new, at leaxst to us. We are, literally, old dogs fixed in our ways.

Base has demonstrated a few times that he will be casually working along and ideas or answers will just pop into his head. This happens to us all. Maybe for Base his most physical meditative state is when he's sitting behind a computer screen looking at the same mundane graphs and numbers like he did yesterday and the day before, and the day before.. Whereby his mind is so in this position, his brain is able to venture off in other directions and reflect
on other transpired deadends. Jus quessing.

Isn't it for most of us though, in our quiet times. Times when we can think deeply, and reflect
on a past quandary that our awareness is at its brightest? And if we're able to have an unbiased attitude our brain can weigh the facts without prejudice. Giving us the chance to make a change of mind inside our brain.

Time in reflection can lead to enlightenment
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:13am PT
Norton this didn't even come out of the bible
Who's bible are you readin?

Song 2:3, "Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the young men. In his shade I took great delight and sat down, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."

Just by the way it reads says it didn't come from The Bible
It feels like the book of Mormon, or somp'in else?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:22am PT
please don't be upsets if I continue to consider the religious slow.

Sorry, but I can't really respect folks who believe in what I see as magic, the invisible and an imaginary father figure. I feel I am beyond religion, but hesitate to try to make others follow my example - as I am just as ignorant or smart as the next guy. We have to understand that nothing makes us more special nor less special than the next human being. To think otherwise would just be arrogant to say the least.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:26am PT

It's unfortunate that Intelligent Design is a ploy by creationists to advance their anti-Darwinian ideas,

Are you kidding me? When God said He created the universe, doesn't that imply that His design was in fact intelligent? Insomuch that when He put it into motion that it would work coherently together down thru the millennia to give and sustain the life of all these ants at my feet right now!! Ouch!

Ploy? Please!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:27am PT
Norton this didn't even come out of the bible
Who's bible are you readin?


Yes it did.

Song of Soloman 2:3 (KJV)

[1] I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys.
[2] As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters.
[3] As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste.
[4] He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love.
[5] Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples: for I am sick of love.
[6] His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me.
[7] I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please.
[8] The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
[9] My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
[10] My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
[11] For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
[12] The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
[13] The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.
[14] O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.
[15] Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes.
[16] My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies.
[17] Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my beloved, and be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether.



This is deep stuff ... G-d is brilliant.

PaRDeS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis);

The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:
Peshat (פְּשָׁט) "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning.[1]
Remez (רֶמֶז) "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash (דְּרַשׁ) from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') "secret" ("mystery") or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.


You can understand this on many levels. The love, (Eros, Philos, and Agape) between a husband and wife, and prophetically the love between true believers and Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Messiah, and the coming of the Messianic Age, 1000 years of peace -- The Millenium.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:54am PT
THIS le petit mort, jgill?

I wanted to hold the moment as long as possible . . . le petit mort, the little death. the post-coital depression, the fleeting saddening loss when [climbing the route] is over (Joe Simpson, The Beckoning Silence, 2003: 116-117).

BTW, some buddhists have described bodily death as 100 times more pleasurable than organism, if one can remain aware through it. That's what the Tibetan Book of the Dead is ostensibly about.

I guess what I was trying to point to, jgill, was the fear that people have about death--but there are two fearsome deaths. One regards the death of the ego / personality when one loses one's body; the other death regards losing the supports and foundations that make-up the ego / personality. Both are frightening to most folks.


EDIT: People can change . . . but only through a death.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:56am PT

I feel I am beyond religion,

Beyond religion yes, beyond God, No!

Religion says do good, recieve good. Works on the earth. But that's not neccisarily how it works in the spiritual world. Jesus said, love everyone as ur brother! Even love ur enemies. Insomuch as feed them. Take them into your home. And turn ur cheek when they strike against you.

The bible used the example; don't even the tax collectors love their children? I'm trying to think of an example of someone you hate. Don't even the politicians love their children? How easy is that? It's easy to love someone of your own kind. I think Jesus meant, seek out the ones that hate you and show them some love! Where you see this in action, you will see a true Christ follower!
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