Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 5, 2013 - 11:32am PT

Bottom line is if you talk nonsense about things you don't really understand, you're going to get called out for it sooner or later, whether by an expert or a quick fact-check.
--

Have you noticed how often I am accused of not understanding this or that, and yet when we venture into the subjective arena, where the path is slippery as snot even for those who have adventured there for 30 years, people are wont to say, "I have no idea at all - ZERO," and instead start yelling about JuJu and magic and delusions.

My ham fisted efforts to try and use other metaphors, most of which are borrowed from friends in the scientific community, have been more the focus than the meant and potatoes of the whole works, which is, What the hell is this life that we have unfolding before and inside of us. When we hear objective descriptions it's not really addressing the question at all, and we all know it in our gut.

So maybe that's where we need to go - right into the gut. That would require heroic honesty from all, and we all like to hide behind masks, most of them cognitive. I do, anyway.

JL

jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 5, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
So maybe that's where we need to go - right into the gut

Probably many if not most of the participants on this thread don't feel that need, but if they do your previous instructions seem good. I think that where you are "going" there are deep mysteries, and to speculate metaphysically is not the best course of action. And when Mike talks about the many "infinities" around us (mine being a simple abstraction) I'm not sure it's terribly convincing. Leave the mysteries in their indescribable state and provide simple instructions, like you have done.

Just my thoughts. You do really well when you keep it simple.

Is there anyone visiting or participating on this thread who feels like making these efforts?

MH2

climber
Jun 5, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
Leave the mysteries in their indescribable state and provide simple instructions, like you have done.


Second to that. I do agree that what JL is doing is heroic and from that perspective I withdraw all my nitpicking objections to his choice of language and cheer him on.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 5, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
Actually, I am and have never suggested that we chuck the evaluating mind. My whole drive is that you need to FIRST spend a good long time listening to and surveying the terrain with no attempot to evaluate, then later, start trying to approximate the whole shebang. Teying to evaluate Mind from the outside is, IME, like trying to guess what the experience is like to drive an Indy car from photos you've seen on line. For one, the descriptions are static, and secondly, they're not based on driving the car, but on speculation about what the drive might be like, given reams of info. So long as our lives are experiences in process, and not things (a corpse is a thing), you've got to jump into the current to really get a feel for the work.

But after the fact, sounding off about it is part of the fandango, and is why music, dance, literature, philosophy, and many of the arts and even some of the sciences came about in the first instance.

Again, imagine running an experiment and before you have collected any of the data, yu start guessing about what's going on. You have to close the pie hole and later, after getting some perpective on the work from the inside, then work on describing it from the outside. Trying to do so in re verse means that you're not really talking about Mind (our actual, tangible subjective lives) at all, but objective functioning.

JL
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 5, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
MikeL obviously has better karma than I do and was ready for the full blown kundalini experience the first time. I had several false starts before the real thing. At one point I felt like one of those old sardine cans where you have a little key that winds the metal strip around itself until the can is open. For me it felt like there was a key at my waist which someone was using to wrench an incredible energy up my spine that was getting more and more taut and painful, and making me dizzy and nauseous.

For the first and only time, my meditation instructor lost his cool and was accusing me of doing secret yoga positions to force it. He doesn't speak English and I don't really speak Japanese, so I looked up the word spontaneous in my dictionary and when he saw that, he suddenly became very sympathetic and put it back down again.

Another time at a gathering of Okinawans and a British follower of Sai Baba, the British man put the palms of his hands on my back at the heart chakra and I felt a powerful spiraling energy move from my waist to my heart chakra. I understood instantly why the ancient Indians had labeled it the serpent power whereas I would have described it as a powerful electric current. Then it was at least two years later that I had the experience that Mike describes. Later I read that there are three knots in the spine that have to be undone before the energy can flow smoothly. They lie at the waist (will power chakra), the heart chakra and the throat (speech) chakra.

The main point I would like to make however, is that there are energetic forces in the body that science knows nothing about but are so powerful that no disbeliever is ever going to convince someone who experienced them that they didn't happen. And since the person with the experience ends up happier and more functional than before, writing it off to mental illness doesn't apply either (for over a hundred years anthropologists wrote off shamans as schizophrenics).

I think it's easy to see however how someone having these experiences who was also part of a religion with lots of dogma could become a fanatic. Meanwhile those of us without the dogma, are left wondering what the process is and frustrated that the science types who could answer some of these questions are either sure they don't exist or think they might but don't want to ruin their reputation by dealing in woo woo. Thus the two sides are at an impasse.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
Kundalini
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Physical and psychological effects

Physical effects are believed to be a sign of kundalini awakening by some,[26] but described as unwanted side effects pointing to a problem rather than progress by others.[25] The following are either common signs of an awakened kundalini or symptoms of a problem associated with an awakening kundalini (commonly referred to as Kundalini syndrome or physio-Kundalini syndrome):
Involuntary jerks, tremors, shaking, itching, tingling, and crawling sensations, especially in the arms and legs
Energy rushes or feelings of electricity circulating the body
Intense heat (sweating) or cold, especially as energy is experienced passing through the chakras
Spontaneous pranayama, asanas, mudras and bandhas
Visions or sounds at times associated with a particular chakra
Diminished or conversely extreme sexual desire sometimes leading to a state of constant or whole-body orgasm
Emotional upheavals or surfacing of unwanted and repressed feelings or thoughts with certain repressed emotions becoming dominant in the conscious mind for short or long periods of time.[27]
Headache, migraine, or pressure inside the skull
Increased blood pressure and irregular heartbeat
Emotional numbness
Antisocial tendencies
Mood swings with periods of depression or mania
Pains in different areas of the body, especially back and neck
Sensitivity to light, sound, and touch
Trance-like and altered states of consciousness
Disrupted sleep pattern (periods of insomnia or oversleeping)
Loss of appetite or overeating
Bliss, feelings of infinite love and universal connectivity, transcendent awareness


a lot like taking drugs, but doing it with just your mind.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 5, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
Whether it's the product of the mind or the spinal cord is surely one of the questions.
And if it's the product of the mind, then why does it happen unexpectedly?
Likewise, if it's a product of the mind, then how come mainstream western psychology knows nothing about it?
WBraun

climber
Jun 5, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
how come mainstream western psychology knows nothing about it?


Because they're stooopid.

Because they rubber stamp Phd on their foreheads.

They guess all the time and make up stooopid theories that they never ever solve.

On and on and on.

Cave men they are, ..... acting as advanced .......
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 5, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
Four Duckies: Offspring of WB Duck
Four Duckies: Offspring of WB Duck
Credit: jogill


Now daddy !!
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 5, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
"Did someone say " Duck"?"

Duck Dynasty
Duck Dynasty
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 5, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
Wikipedia has an interesting article on kundalini (thanks Dr. F. !).

One of the things it states is this, " The biological changes of increased P300 amplitudes that occurs with certain Yogic practices may lead to acute psychosis."

Can somebody with a neurobiology background please explain to me what P300 amplitudes are?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 5, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
Jan, I can't account for what happens to me. ("I didn't do anything. It's not my fault!")


It's jogill's complaint that I'm most concerned about: just where are those infinite infinities?

They're everywhere.

I look in front of me in this cabin I'm in, and I see an open bag of Tostitos. At first, the item looks simple and well-defined, but when I look closer, I see that all the colors show more shades than I can keep track of. And when I move my head just a little right or left, the shades shift. I move my focus away from a point a tenth of a millimeter, and I see another shade. I look even closer (I get out my magnifying glass), and I see different things than what I saw before. The closer my view, the more radically different things I see. I think that might happen into infinity.

I do the same with a chip in the bag, but this time I focus on texture. At first the chip's surface looks a little bumpy and blotchy, but I get really close with my magnifying glass, and the texture and color changes. I suspect the surface changes the farther I go up macroscopically or the farther I go down in microscopically. It's like my consciousness shifts from one dimension into another dimension.

What about the bag? It's surely has definite dimensions, doesn't it? A super-duper close inspection reveals fractals, and those fractals indicate infinite distances or lengths.

The same goes for what's left and right of the bag as for what goes for in or out microscopically on the bag. There appears to be no end or any beginning to anything. It's all infinities.

Every sense offers an infinite range of values. Thank god there are only 5 of those.

Wait . . . are we sure there are only 5 senses? If I reach out with my consciousness, I can sense something else out there, but I don't have a word for it. Maybe it's telepathy, intuition, or Bell's theorem.

The more experience you get, the more experience that you can make available to yourself. It's like listening to music. The more you listen to music, the more you develop an ear. And the more that you can appreciate that music is infinite. The same goes for anything. Everything exposes infinities if you can open yourself up to them.


You know this spiritualism stuff isn't really about anything that's sacred, fragile, and ethereal. It's as pragmatic, practical, and concrete as anything could possibly be. Experience is exactly that. On the other hand, people see, hear, feel, smell, and taste their realities in definitive ways because their sensitivities are crude, brutish, and inexperienced. (Not yours, jogill.)

Look closely and carefully at anything, and you'll fall out of an exploding singularity that never ends.

On the other hand, if you see any thing as defined, clear, unambiguous, with hard edges, deterministic, closed, and dualistic, then I suspect you're seeing things through a rational concept. Reality gives every indication that it is utterly continuous.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 5, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
MikeL
Your posts have always refreshed me with an absolute awe in a different view in seeing things

Until this one.

Infinities in a bag of chips? I didnt think there could be infinities in ANY material thing.
With the right microscope or telescope one should be able to see ALL the spectrums of a bag... And there would be an end to it. Thus putting the bag in a box.

I heard somewhere, that my body contains prehistoric stardust. Well, when did that star enter my bloodstream? When I conceived and made an embryo? Or did it become a part of me from the tonnage of chips I've embellished over the years?

Either way, do you think that makes that star infinite?

Cause no ones ever called me a star.


You know this spiritualism stuff isn't really about anything that's sacred, fragile, and ethereal.

And jeez, respectfully, you don't even know what spiritualism is, if you havnt met The Holy Spirit.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 6, 2013 - 06:19am PT
What the hell is this life that we have unfolding before and inside of us.

Seems like a reasonable question to me, although to some it might be like trying to explain a joke to Mr Spock. Either you're awed by the mystery, or not. Too bad, though, this field of study is dominated by bizarre fantasies, and populated by charlatans and the insecure people who follow them.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 6, 2013 - 07:13am PT
Thanks to Ed for mentioning The Science of Yoga. I thought it sounded familiar and when I looked it up on Amazon, discovered from a picture of the cover that I had in fact dusted the same book just the day before and wondered, why I hadn't read it yet. Another coincidence!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 6, 2013 - 07:33am PT
Too bad, though, this field of study is dominated by bizarre fantasies, and populated by charlatans and the insecure people who follow them.



Such bs. I'm glad you all keep it on this thread and don't take it climbing where attention to reality and elimination of bs actually matter.

What the hell is this life that we have unfolding before and inside of us. When we hear objective descriptions it's not really addressing the question at all, and we all know it in our gut.

First sentence, well that's the $64M question, now isn't it. All of science and of course our history of religions in large part are a response to it. Second sentence, it's a shame you choose to phrase so much of your postings like this, it's such a losing strategy.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 6, 2013 - 07:37am PT
I'm quite sure that just as people have climbed drunk, stoned, and high on psychedelics, so have they also climbed in mystical states.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 6, 2013 - 07:41am PT
Yeah, that would suck if your belayer's kundalini came out, right in the middle of the crux.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 6, 2013 - 07:49am PT
BB:

The recognition that any dimension is continuous means that you can arbitrarily take any segment and divide it up infinitely. Each dimension is an infinity. That includes a taco chip or a spectrum of colors. (See Zeno's Paradox.)

You're caught in the mental rational web as much as anyone here, BB. To conceive of anything is to come up with an abstraction. That's the work of mental rationalism. There are far more views of reality than that. Forget prehistoric and look for what is timeless.

The Holy Ghost is a close friend of mine. We laugh at the absurdities of Man and the wonder of trees.
WBraun

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 08:32am PT
The kundalini process of yoga is not possible in this age.

It's a very difficult process and was meant for a different age.

In this age of kali it is not possible to be successful with this yoga process.

Still foolish people with poor fund of knowledge of the different yoga processes for the different ages will try.

The kundalini process is gradually raise the life air (prana) up the chakras to purify and come to the ajna chakra.

Once there at the ajna chakra between the two eyebrows, one penetrates the hole in his skull, and one can go to any planet he desires.

The modern lab coats have no clue about any of this.

The modern lab coats all operate on the lower 2 chakras .......

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