Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
Hail to measurements!!

Credit: BASE104

WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
You can only measure illusion but one can never measure truth.

For truth is infinite and nothing can grasp it except for pure love ......
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Poetic and possibly profound, Mr Duck


;>)
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
Never argue with someone locked into a perspective
JL

and yet, that is your argument, your perspective
Ironic yes
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#311436

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

2 Corinthians 1:24 for by faith you stand.

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
. . . apologists for all religions.

I'm highly tolerant. Tolerance is nothing that people believe in here. All of those beliefs (Zimmerman, the NSA, the Syrians, Honnold, Republicans, and religion) that I find here on ST are false. They're just projections.

It's nothing to get balled-up about. Don't get so excited. In the end, it's neither good nor bad.


Base: discursive mind is the thinking mind, as opposed to the working mind. The working mind is that part of your mind that's taking care of moment-to-moment business. The other mind, the thinking mind, is that part of the mind that is unceasingly questioning itself, others, the world around it, and trying to manipulate what it perceives to be things around it (dualism). There's no need for the thinking mind. It's irrelevant.

As regards to the working mind, it just takes care of itself and business as needs be. Feeling thirsty? Take a drink. Feeling tired? Go to sleep. Have a calculation to run? Do that (and nothing more). Need groceries? Go to the grocery store, put them in the basket, and pay the lady at the checkout stand. Feel listless? Go for a run. It's all so simple and straightforward. You've experienced the working mind when climbing "in the zone."

There's no need for conscious thinking. Everything actually takes care of itself. Miss a move soloing at 500 feet off the ground and now falling? Don't' worry about it. Your body will die.

Life is so simple and straightforward. You needn't analyze anything, label anything, bracket anything, make models of anything. All of reality is simply there for you to observe and experience as you are equipped (karma).

Hear that committee inside your head? That's your discursive mind at work. Just like some people on this thread, you can just let that committee and its constant jammering go on and on, or you can let it go. There's no need to pay attention to any of it. All of it is empty, fantastic, shadowy, nonsensical, useless drivel, tripe.

There is only The Timeless, Now, Here, Experience.

. . . And everything else (as so many threads are screaming about here on ST)? Pfffttttttt! Empty. Even this post--even if it were to change minds, behaviors, and people.

Reality gets changed in no way. Experience remains as it has always been: "suchness," indescribable, ungraspable, indefinable, unchangeable, without context, without content, pure, timeless, awareness.

It's just you, right now . . . and nothing else. It's never been anything else.
WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
There's no need to pay attention to any of it.

Then why are you paying attention .......
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
I guess Largo has had better luck with other forums
we are just too fixed in the discursive mind to figure out his earth shattering new perspective

Lot's of others get it, it's like a new runaway fad that all the kids are doing these days!!
us old farts just can't do the work required to make it.

as if!
MH2

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
For truth is infinite and nothing can grasp it except for pure love ......


This is why Theodore Sturgeon was an unusually good writer of science fiction.

What kind of love did our ancestor tree shrews experience?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
Then why are you paying attention .......

I got called to it.

I'm not in control of this bus, Werner. I'm just along for the ride.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
BASE, what I was driving at is not an "idea," nor is it necessarily intuitive (which implies a search for "meaning" as opposed to direct experiencing). It's your discursive mind (or more accurately, your evaluating mind) that says it must be so. Simply note that the evaluating mind is made to work with discrete ideas and things at the exclusion of the whole.

But enough on that - there is no interest in this thread in exploring that terrain and so be it. I said so many times - that work is not for everyone.

I did mention that for those curious about ultra-discursive experiences (ultra is Latin = beyond, on the far side of), the first task is to get hold of how the discursive/evaluationg actually works, especially in conjuction with your awareness/focus, over which we have some free will to choose (we have little to no control over what arises in consciousness).

One of the reasons this work is so tricky for us all is that the evaluting mind is itself exceptionally adverse to being left behind, even for ten minutes. And so mere mention that we are considering it brings out people saying "Heil measuring," and Craig again harping about "earth shattering new perspectives" and all of the other nagative reactions, as if the discusive fears a kind of destruction if you stepped out of the matrix for a second. the unconscious fear is not about what we might discover, but that we are using something other than the discursive. And when our system is set up to have a fundamentalist fealty to reason, we are unlikely to ever go beyond it, and tell ourselves whatever is out there MUST be wu wu and garbabe - all of this based on discursive reasoning itself.

Put differently, mention of ultra discursive forays are automatically trargeted as threats to sanity and reason, and are the targets of our most fantastic projections - wu wu, intuitive, fuzzy feelings, way-out ideas, Nehru coats, etc. - none of which are themselves ultra material, but rather so much white noise and mental hand wringing from the matrix itself. Then once we start placing virtue on staying put, we not only have the fossilized mental looping consistant with old farts, but we're so trapped by our own devices that the jailer, so to speak, can thrown away the key.

It's not my job to try and coax people out of jail, especially when they ardently believe they are in paradise, and have to be tempeted out by arguments that square with their regular cognitive patterns - lest they never budge off the bunk. So it goes, but recognizing how the discursive automatically puts up such a fight about what it does not know or understand - even if you were raised in the 60s and have already "seen and done all that," or like Craig, exhausted all of the techniques of "the masters," since the beginning of time, in the privacy of his own home, and found no "answers" - will likely be a curious starting point for those with curious minds.

Or not.

JL
MH2

climber
Jul 18, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
the unconscious fear is not about what we might discover, but that we are using something other than the discursive


All of us use something other than the discursive. However, to go where JL is going/not going, one must feel the call, as MikeL puts it.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 18, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
All of us use something other than the discursive. However, to go where JL is going/not going, one must feel the call, as MikeL puts it.
--

That's well put. Although I would add that we all unconsciously use much more than the discursive. Most of us have no conscious wherewithal with our internal processes.

My only point is that having some curiosity about the ultra discursive or "hearing the call" is not itself a knock on the discursive, or a threat or put-down on others. That's like saying that climbing is a threat or a put down to those walking on the sidewalk. And so long as you feel that walking on the sidewalk is "better" than being on-high, you will prove yourself "right" every time.

JL

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 18, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
. . . I would add that we all unconsciously use much more than the discursive.

This is a greatly under-estimated declaration, in my estimation. The five senses and the cognitive operations of the thinking mind provide the grossest of inputs or sensations for awareness. I've been getting the sense that there are myriads of other sensations (dimensions?) that we can hardly sense (much less measure--ha ha) at all. It feels like wisps of air or subtle currents in a pool of water. One "feels" one's way through reality. I think that's what MH2 might be referring to also. (I don't' mean to put words in your mouth.) One allows these "currents" to take hold propitiously when one lets go.

Engagement with Reality is a process of noticing, and noticing that you're noticing.

Noticing IS Enlightenment.

It's all so straightforward and simple, really; yet, remarkably, seemingly so difficult. As Largo points out, . . . there's that darned "jailer" guarding the doorway. Yet that jailer isn't real, nor is the door. That's why yogis refer to the obstacle between seeing Reality and seeing the illusion as "the gateless gate."
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 18, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
Ah, becoming airborne once again . . .

(but more literate and entertaining)


;>)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 18, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
even if you were raised in the 60s and have already "seen and done all that,"

Yeah, well, see, I never said that. I said I've seen some and done some, in response to the oft-repeated accusation that no one here ever wanted to lift a finger to ever try any of it. Context is important, but strawman hyperbole is the easiest way to mischaracterize, so have it that way it you want.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 18, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
Yeah, well, see, I never said that. I said I've seen some and done some, in response to the oft-repeated accusation that no one here ever wanted to lift a finger to ever try any of it. Context is important, but strawman hyperbole is the easiest way to mischaracterize, so have it that way it you want.


My point was that the above, and most all other iterations of same, while sounding viable as arguments or replies against false accusations, are in fact the discursive's unconscious ploys to keep from exiting the matrix, whereby virtue and ritiousness is attached to defending a position (evaluating mind). It's really just another way to hunker down into an old fart kind of stasis, replete with smugness, surity, and the garden variety grousing about the "other guy," who is always (fill in the blank). It's how us old folks often act when faceed with anything "new," or posturing as new, at leaxst to us. We are, literally, old dogs fixed in our ways.

My mistake in the past was in trying to roust folks off their rockers, and arguing with people locked into a perspective. But it is still curious and instructive to see the extent that the evaluating mind will rally in it's own defence when no such defense is needed. Like Mike said, not everyone hears the call to don the Nehru, and it is not a knock on others who have no interest in colarless jackets, so to speak. Not everyone is called to wall climb. Imagine trying to talk someone into doing that who has neither the temperament, drive/interest, or sac to do so. That's nothing but a disservice to those illprepared for that particular work. There are plenty of other worthy things to do.

So if the path is not clear or worth your while - who can fault you for staying on the old home turf.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 18, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
Well then, point well taken. Maybe someday that call will come round again; in the meantime to each his own, eh?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 18, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
Discursive:

Proceeding to a conclusion through reason rather than intuition.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/discursive
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 18, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
Yes, to each his or her own and that includes the go-B's of the world. I think a lot more peace would reign and people be persuaded to enlarge their view if tolerance was practiced. I think the only time to do battle is if there is an attempted infringement on the concept of the separation of church and state. Even there, the arguments must be thought out carefully,and presented as non confrontationally as possible. The blunt force trauma approach may work on highly educated, discursive thinkers who already had doubts, but that category does not include most of the people whose minds we would like to change in a more scientific direction.
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