Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 2, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
womens shorter attention spans and addiction to hook up apps are
probably a sign from god. But whats he trying to tell us?



MH2

climber
Jun 2, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
The end is near.
WBraun

climber
Jun 2, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
It has been said and is verifiable and everyone knows it.

The senses are defective.

One who gathers information only thru the senses will ultimately be mislead and bewildered.

Thus the materialists are ultimately always wrong in the end result to the end of the unmanifested.

The gross materialists are all under the control of their run away senses.

And at the same time foolishly believing they are in control.

Thus they remain perpetually bewildered all while expounding their limited incomplete knowledge and misleading each other down the drain ......
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 2, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
I'm actually more interested in the process rather than the end state...

the process seems to be important, Largo has scolded me that I haven't practiced meditation seriously for many years and therefore couldn't possibly understand it....

but that is a practice of a process

it would seem that that is a very physical, causal procedure, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems rather specific and involved...

so Largo is saying there is a causal link that the process takes us from our usual state to this state of "no thing"

how does that happen?


It happens in stages, IME.

Did you understand the explanation I used with how the discrsive mind narrow focuses on whatever we are working on? Did you check your own process on how this is so?

The first part of the process it to keep the aperature open.

And really Ed, John can say I haven't studied mathematics for years under many various masters and therefore I don't understand squat about it - which I don't, but when I insist that you simply cannot investigage mind in the round discursively at any depth, and that this is NOT a theory, this is suddenly crazy talk. Such quips make it progressively harder to take your inquiry seriously, when sarcasm replaces even the febelest efforts to learn something new.

Did you take even one moment to investigate that information about separating from your primnary selves as clearly stated in the Delos material?

To what extent are you willing to go to fill in the gaps? Can you see the unconscious terror or leaving the discursive mind, even for a minute, without reams of excuses and evidence that you'll survive the trauma and that it will be worth it. Try and ease just an inch out of your cognitive comfort zone. We're not children here, and I'm not talknig about any boogy man, God, beliefs, JUJU or anyting. I'm just saying, ease away from a part of your mind and see for yourself.

JL

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 2, 2013 - 11:12pm PT

it would seem that that is a very physical, causal procedure, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems rather specific and involved...

The whole picture Largo painted for me, reminds me a lot like the meditative state I inhibit when I'm climbing..
Sure, when I was first learning I was all in awe playing with the gear. But after I knew what I was doing. Soon as I would tie into the sharpend, the world would become translucent and I would lock into a world of flow. Movement and strength, flowing, unthinkingly. I can't remember any one single move while climbing The Narrows. The whole pitch was like a whole body pressure, tension test (minus the head). If I could'of stood outside of my body and looked around and saw where I was at and what I was doing. I prolly would'of shite myself.
But inside I stayed in my "no-thing"-ness, and just "felt" myself thru the horror.

Could it be Largos mindless "no-thing", has something to do in the body's achievement of "nothing"?

Largo, what is your body DOING when ur mind is meditating? What's ur posit-ion?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 3, 2013 - 03:57am PT
The importance of position while meditating is one I've thought a lot about since I started with Zen and they are so strict on posture. Later, other groups, both Hindu and Buddhist, said you need to keep your spine straight, but you can do that in a chair. Still later, I figured out that lots of Christians get the same effect while kneeling or in the case of some, standing. I suspect one of the reasons climbing is effective is that it's mostly done with a straight back. Lying down by contrast seems mainly effective for out of body states.

All this gets us back of course to the question of how the meditating mind is tied to the autonomic nervous system somehow, all the way to the base of the spine.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 3, 2013 - 08:25am PT


Shopped, but cute.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 3, 2013 - 09:13am PT
general effects that digital technologies are having on art, entertainment, and news?

I'd second the idea that we're never alone. We're expected to be on call and available, by numerous means, all the time. In the city you see half the people walking around are staring at their phone.

On facebook you can choose who are your friends, who shows up in your news feed, and who is ok to have as a friend but you don't want all their news all the time. After filtering this info, I end up with a news feed of articles from people I've selected (and unselected) who have similar interests and views.

The other way I stay informed is to read the news by searching for keywords in google news. You get a general idea what's going on from headlines, then research the stories by searching for keywords that show that the author knows what's going on. ie, you read a story and it leaves an obvious question in your mind, then you put in the key words to see if anyone has answered it. If I find something really good I post it to facebook, but am careful not to post too many things.

All this is far more interactive than TV and newspapers, and allows you to take control rather than being a passive absorber of information deemed to be of general interest to the public by news editors. Many people have misconceptions about the news industry, that they have a duty to inform the public about something. They don't. They are businesses that sell a product to an audience, and each crafts an image of itself that's supposed to appeal to a certain demographic. If a story would offend those readers, it's not going to be in the news.

That's a longer response than I intended but the internet is certainly the most important innovation I've seen in my lifetime. I just wish there was a way to keep facebook from mixing deceptive ads into my newsfeed, that's designed to look like news. What would be really amazing is if doj would bring an antitrust case against them, so facebook could be opened up to competition.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Jun 3, 2013 - 09:15am PT
reminds me a lot like the meditative state I inhibit when I'm climbing..

Inhibit, heh.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 3, 2013 - 09:51am PT
general effects that digital technologies are having on art, entertainment, and news?

jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 3, 2013 - 10:00am PT
I just wish there was a way to keep facebook from mixing deceptive ads into my newsfeed, that's designed to look like news. What would be really amazing

I got hacked twice in Facebook, before I left the site. Supposedly I was going to give away free Ipods.

Jan's comments about the position of the spine are very interesting. I recall the same instructions - to keep a straight back - years ago when I indulged. And certainly the consciousness separation experience seems to be associated with reaxation and reclining.

I wish John would speak to this issue and describe some of the techniques for attaining his state of emptyness. Saying that we get started doing any sort of meditation is helpful, but Jan has pointed out a technical aspect of consequence.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 3, 2013 - 10:48am PT
The number one reason people hate America: the number one reason is because of our religion. Americans worship money, we worship money. Separate God from school, separate God from work, separate God from government, but on your money it says in God we trust. All my life I've been looking for God, and He's right in my pocket. Americans worship money, and we all go to the same church, the church of ATM. Everywhere you look there's a new branch popping up remind you about how much money you got and how much money you don't got. And if you got less than twenty dollars, the machine won't even talk to you. The machine is like, "You better go see a teller." You ever go to a teller and try to take out eight dollars and fifty cents? Oh, it's disgusting oh man, you gotta wait on that long ass line, people doing real transactions in front of you, you get on to the f*#king front, you fill out your form, eight fifty. The f*#king teller looks at it, she look at you, she looks at the check, she don't even take the money out of the drawer, she take it out of her pocket, "Here you go, get outta here." And here's something, man. Drugs are illegal, but ATM machines are open twenty-four hours a day. Twenty-four hours a day. For who? Who the f*#k is it open for? Have you ever taken out three hundred dollars at four o'clock in the morning for something positive? Sh#t, when you press that machine at four o'clock in the morning, I think a psychiatrist should pop up on the screen and go, "Come on, man, save your money, man. Don't buy drugs, buy some rims. They spinning, nigga, they spinning, they spinning, nigga, they spinning." Americans worship money. Sh#t, you know why banks are closed on Sunday? 'Cause if they wasn't, church would be empty.
Chris Rock
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 3, 2013 - 11:08am PT
The young seem to be developing shorter attention spans, which bodes ill for the sciences. Of course the really smart kids who have an interest will always do well. Instant and constant communication is a sword having two edges
What are your thoughts on the Flynn effect?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 3, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
When I was in grad school we did a bunch of research about meditative brain states as measured by EEGs, qEEGs, and a couple other gadgets. I'd have to go back to my notes if I still have them but the difference between various types of meditation is huge - each methos produces different brains states.

The biggest single differenece was between eyes open (traditinal Zen, and the very least popular method) and all the others, which are mostly eyes closed. The eyes-closed mode produces far more Alpha waves which are indicitive of relaxed and even dreamy states. Eyes open, when mesured on folks with ten or more years of practice, produced brain patterns with such a grouping of slow Delta and Theta waves (often associated with unconscious processes) that if a non-meditator was induced into this state they likely would suffer seizures, seizure syndrome being most typically seen with these EEG patterns. Anyway, Zen remakins the lest dreamy and by far the least popular and least "fun" of all the meditation techniques, and as Jan mentioned, probably the most amorphous and difficult to manage.

The emphasis is on keeping your spine straight so your head and shoulders are in balance over your lower body. You can do this in a chair or on a mat. Head relaxed, eyes soft focused on a point maybe ten feet in front of you, breathing relaxed, neither shallow or deep. This has been found to be efective in maintaining a sharp mind and allows your psysiology to settle which greatly helps the discursive mind to settle in turn. Because we are doing something that is entirely unnatural in a sense, which is momentarily stepping out of our roles as thinkers, we need any help we can get, and maintaining good posture and a soft open eyes focus has proven to be helpful.

It usually takes me about twenty minutes for my body and energy to really settle and for the practice to really catch fire. As mentioned, is is not a matter of inducing your mind into this or that state as slowly detaching from the things that generally steal all of your minds attention. Somewhere in there you are likely to get a glimpse of the mind's vast vacancy, so vast that all things can fit inside with no resistance. Here is where you first start getting an idea about who you are above your conditioning, because probably for the first time you are simply being with your experience as opposed to trying to evaluate it. Why?

Imagine being around a girlfriend if you were simply evaluating her the entire time. What you would know is not the girl, but your evaluations. This works the process the other way round - the counterintuitive way. Be there for a good long time, and THEN evaluate. But it all vectors off first getting to zero and hanging there for as long as you can tolerate, or before your mind unconsciously snags your attention and you wake up in Hawaii (in you rmind) or arguing with someone who is not there.

The seemingly simply task of just remaining present with your experience witout thinking about it turns out to be the hardest thing you'll ever try IME.

JL
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 3, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Thank you, john.

. . . that if a non-meditator was induced into this state they likely would suffer seizures, seizure syndrome being most typically seen with these EEG patterns.


Years ago I heard of something called "meditation sickness" or a similar title. Is this what it is?

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 3, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
aka Enlightenment Edema; aka the Bodhisattva Bends.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 3, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
I don't think so. The point was that it took people ten or more years of training for the brain to handle idling down to those low wave states. Early neurofeed back realized you could often "entrain" or nudge the brain into states by way reward-oriented feedback (usualy a sound when the targeted range was hit) and this was causing some untoward effects because folks were going where their brains were not yet trained to tollerate.

Of the people who were tested who had been practicing for many decades, there was a marked decrease in amplitude across the whole EEG spectrum, from Delta all the way up to Theta, which gave some people the idea that the brain was almost shutting down till they understod that a lot of the electrical activity in the brain - or at least that reecorded by an EEG - is white noise and that when other measurement were taken, especially coherence across all lobes of the cortex (via qEEG, measuring 32 sites at once), the brain was simply operating much more efficiently.

Then there were the standard arguments with one camp saing that the brain wave activity created the states and conversely, that meditation created the particular brain wave pattern. I say they're two aspects of the same process of getting clear. But I'm with Jan is believing that this is all hooked up somehow with energy, which in us humans is basically managed through the spine. Our awareness in this regards is like a spot light or fire hose and whatever we train it on is going to absorbe a lot of energy.

JL
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 3, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
What are your thoughts on the Flynn Effect?

From the wiki article: "Some studies have found a reverse Flynn effect with declining scores for those with high IQ"

Otherwise, I have no thoughts on it. Interpretations and speculations seem to be all over the place. As are test results. I would guess scores will fall a bit due to shortened attention spans in the last few years, but I may be entirely wrong. I try to imagine students in math classes these days having the ability to focus on a problem beyond a short time.



Edit: Good thoughts, John
MH2

climber
Jun 3, 2013 - 08:59pm PT

The emphasis is on keeping your spine straight so your head and shoulders are in balance over your lower body. You can do this in a chair or on a mat. Head relaxed, eyes soft focused on a point maybe ten feet in front of you, breathing relaxed, neither shallow or deep.

It usually takes me about twenty minutes for my body and energy to really settle and for the practice to really catch fire.


Plain and direct. Perfect. Thank you.


Let me make it clear, if it isn't already, that I do not argue against JL and his meditation practice but I do find fault with the case he makes for it in this thread. There should be no need to refer to math, infinitude, quantum physics, any physics at all, or neuroscience:

till they understod that a lot of the electrical activity in the brain - or at least that reecorded by an EEG - is white noise

White noise shows equal activity across any given band of frequencies while EEG does not (you had better hope!). Humor points though for calling a lot of the electrical activity in the brain white noise.

Why does JL bring in all these references to objective stuff when he isn't sure of his ground? It makes one wonder about the other statements he makes. Perhaps it is Rinzai to shoot yourself in the foot? Repeatedly?





Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 3, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
White noise shows equal activity across any given band of frequencies while EEG does not (you had better hope!). Humor points though for calling a lot of the electrical activity in the brain white noise.

Why does JL bring in all these references to objective stuff when he isn't sure of his ground? It makes one wonder about the other statements he makes. Perhaps it is Rinzai to shoot yourself in the foot? Repeatedly?
---


I'm calling total bullshit on this last statement and per EEG/neurofeedback work and I'll challenge you on virtually any facet of it anytime you want. I was involved in that work for 20 years.

FYI, "white noise" here is a common NF term referencing exscessive spiking in the signal other than that caused by artifact (eyes blinking) and so forth. Here, the brain is literally out of phase with itself and is performing the mentel equivalant backfiring. As you might or might not know, many so-called psychiatric conditions have an EEG footprint of synchronous large amplitude spike-wave discharges. Eliminate and reduce these spikes (brain plasicity allows this) and many of the symptoms often vanish.

Said spikes are your "white noise," that being needless and counterproductive electrical activity that needs to get tuned out. But it's never so easy as all that (one size does NOT fit all), which is one reason why psychopharm is so spotty, often toxic and often only addresses symptoms.

Your mistake here is that you're unsure of your ground and tryng to bounce it back on me. That's just silly, disingenuous and plain daft. As though the objective is priviledged ground. Please . . .

JL
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