Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
Fructose, what's happened to this thread is a good illustration of how you should be careful about what you wish for. If you disdain the moderates as you are so fond of doing, then what you end up with are the far ends of the spectrum. The true ferment of ideas occurs in the middle among people who still have open minds. The fringe will never do anything but repeat what they already know. When that gets boring, they resort to personal insults. You got what you wished for.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
Very wise, Jan.

Namaste.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Namaste
It's sure good to hear ya'lls loving logical voices!
Ive missed ur spanse of ideas..

I hope your body is healing well Mikel, I was a bit worried
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:10am PT
Fructose wrote, Then deleted.

" (a) more Werner posts bashing science and referring to stupid whitecoats. "

Even if werners seems a bit crude, you can tell it doesn't come from a hateful heart.


"(b) more paranormalist discourse from the woo-woo set (because the last 12 months or more were insufficient)?"

I think everyone's input has been very beneficial in understanding my own.



"(c) more Dr. F. "science"? "

He might not be as open but atleast he's inquisitive. Besides he started the thread.


Do you think I wish for... what? o wise one?

LOL!

Urs just seem disrespectful. Even to the Ladies. If I spoke to my grandma like that
she would flick my nose!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 16, 2013 - 07:14am PT
In the new order the Priest of science will send you off to the reeducation camps for a little Matrix reloading, Jan.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 16, 2013 - 08:21am PT
Gonna clone a mammoth to prove there is no god but Science.

Oh yeah.

We gots to CLONE those Woolley boogers!

I mean if that doesn't convince these fence sitters what will?
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2013 - 11:34am PT
This is both Political and Religious, but I thought it would get read by more folks in this thread.


Southern Fried Christian Sharia
On July 4, 2013, in Column, by Tina Dupuy .
http://www.tinadupuy.com/column/southern-fried-christian-sharia/

North Carolina state legislators introduced what was described as an anti-Sharia law bill this week. The concern was a religion would trump our laws—threaten our constitution. This religion, they fear, would dictate our rights and punish dissent. It would blur the lines between church and state! Women would be subjugated! This is such a threat North Carolina lawmakers must act posthaste!

Then with absolutely zero appreciation for irony, the state senate amended the bill to quickly and somewhat secretly restrict access to legal and constitutionally-protected abortion.

Why? Their religious convictions.

Nice tactic: Scare people with the specter of Islamic totalitarianism and then pass a bill that would make Pakistan pause.

I see what you did there.

Religion is the sand you throw in someone’s face before you rob them. Disorient the target to reach your goal faster.

Christianity has been used to justify everything from the crusades, sectarian wars and inquisitions, to witch burnings, cross burnings and Christian rock. The idea that it would be a better basis for a free country isn’t supported by history.

Theology makes for horrible government. (See: every theocracy ever.) No matter how wonderful it seems, in theory, for everyone to be of the same religion—praying the same way to the same god—it never ends with expansive human rights for all people.

Religion is subjective, selective and discriminating—it’s the opposite of democracy. No matter if it’s Christianity, or Islam, or Gluten-Freeism.

Which is why the U.S. Constitution is the framework for a secular government. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, secular government is the worst form of government except for all those other ones that have been tried.

This week in the trial of George Zimmerman the jury watched the exclusive interview he did last July with Sean Hannity of Fox News. When asked if the 28-year-old regretted killing a teenager, Zimmerman said it was god’s plan and he wasn’t going to second guess him. God wanted an innocent unarmed 17-year-old to be shot to death by a wannabe cop?

Indefensible acts have a defense in religion. And that’s a rickety basis for a government.

An overlooked but compelling factor in the ousting of year-long Egyptian president, Mohamed Morsi, was that his denial of “democratic freedoms” in the name of religion left him with few supporters. Two weeks ago, Morsi, a leader in the Muslim Brotherhood called for a holy war in Syria.

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad (not a champion of human rights by any stretch) said: “The summary of what is happening in Egypt is the fall of what is called political Islam.”

Add that to the list of why my religion, your religion, or anyone else’s religion shouldn’t be imposed legislatively.

Lutherans and Methodists can’t agree on confessionals—which version of Christianity is the one you want writing laws?

The answer: None of them.

On the home front, Texas Governor Rick Perry (R) called a special session this week to yet again try to pass a bill that would essentially shut down most women’s health clinics in the state. This fundamentalist-fueled pro-birth zealotry is sponsored by state lawmaker Jodie Laubenberg (R), who claims rape kits in ERs are “where a woman can get cleaned out.” Which is like saying a breathalyzer test will sober you up. Mind-bogglingly stupid.

But this battle is not about facts; it’s about ending what Governor Oops thinks is objectionable based on his religion. No room for science. No room for data. No room for sound public policy based on egalitarian principles. God’s will—women are public incubators. Our private parts are up to public approval. Our reproductive ability trumps our constitutional rights.

In Texas they want to deregulate everything except the womb. Why? Because religious fervor is being selectively applied to reproductive rights.

And this fervor is subjugating women, punishing dissent and blurring the lines between church and state. But at least it’s not Sharia!

Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2013 - 11:48am PT
I don't know how all you closed minded hard nosed Spiritual people can call me Closed minded.

I am one of the only ones here that has gone through it all, all through a Natural Evolution of on going Change, I am the one most open minded people on this planet.
I was brought up Christian, then a New Ager, then Eastern Religious Meditation, all the time believing there was something more, a human purpose, spiritual evolution for a better afterlife.

I am not wrapped around my ideas with an ego that must be protected, if I am wrong, I will admit it and incorporate the new information..

All I need is the proof that your belief or God is real.
That's why I do these threads, to try and find something more. But the farther I go, the closer I get to the pure natural state, just another ant out of billions of other ants living out it's short lifespan in a big universe of nothing.
There is no purpose, no higher meaning, we get one thing, the chance to enjoy our life, there is nothing more.


If you are going say that something is beyond understanding and there is something more, like a God or higher connection, you will have to then be comfortable in saying that the Muslims, the Christians, Buddhists, Hindu, etc. are all on the same baseline, they are all the correct belief system.

Or say that they are wrong, and Only your belief is correct, which people like Jan, Largo and MikeL will never do. Which make them apologists for all religions.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2013 - 11:55am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Credit: Dr. F.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Covering the Shame
Ever since Adam and Eve tried to use fig leaves to cover their shame from God’s holy presence, humans have been afraid to reveal their innermost beings. This lesson examines nakedness and shame and asks, “Is there anything we can do to protect ourselves from the unrelenting nature of holiness?”

http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/audio/covering-shame1/





How Did The World Get So Messed Up?, Part 2

From Reframing Your Worldview
History is moving toward a climax. Why doesn’t God just shut the earth down now? In this broadcast, Pastor Rick explains the reason why God puts up with all the grief that he sees on this planet. One day, there will be an accounting for all the sin on Earth. Are you ready to face God?

http://rickwarren.org/listen/player?bid=c55f7031-cfef-4fad-9142-b761b8706508

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:42am PT
Word to the religious.. Maybe someday?

Also to the trolls..

jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Ennui flows downhill . . .
jstan

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
A very good day. McConnell has had a visit to the woodshed.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
Universe May Not Be Expanding At ALL


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/17/universe-expanding-cosmologist_n_3606136.html
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
If you are going say that something is beyond understanding and there is something more, like a God or higher connection, you will have to then be comfortable in saying that the Muslims, the Christians, Buddhists, Hindu, etc. are all on the same baseline, they are all the correct belief system.

Or say that they are wrong, and Only your belief is correct, which people like Jan, Largo and MikeL will never do. Which make them apologists for all religions.


I think what this underscores for me, and makes plain the reason I stopped pr3esenting ideas to this thread, is that the larger spiritual questions simply cannot be approached at the level of the discursive mind, and it's simply a fatuous runaround trying to do so. I am convinced that to get at these illusive realities one must reverse engineer their way back behind the discursive mind and experience how it operates before a wider view is even possible. Until that time comes, we are all prone to do what Craig did, which is to apparently go looking for truth, but in fact only looking for for something to satisfy the discursive mind. Finding no such thing, then the whole spiritual business becomes a specious quest after nothing - or so it seems.

So quite naturally the task is to pull up to the light of day the discursive itself, but eforts to go there were responded to with the most fantastic resistance, whereby I was someone on a soap box selling koolaid or snakeoil, or else some one reaised in the LSD era declared that they had already "done all that and seen all of that," while invitations to describe what "that" was resulted in nothing more than surface layer probes into breath work and mind settling ideas. At first I mistakenly thought that it was fear and ignorance that kept people from venturing forth, or else the standard projecting of wonky religio-mythologies onto the work and believing what was being broached was in fact the same old time religion or belief-driven, fuzzy feeling, Nehru coat doing shuck and jive.

Ultimately I leanred that most of the resistance was almost ceratinly due to the aging demographic of those on this thread, whereby thoughts and beliefs and cherished notions and the joy of being "right" get so fossilized in the system that invitations to transcend them are met with growls and rancor and all kind of foolishness.

The irony is that the great asset of the brain, the discursive mind, is the very impediment to seeing beyond, whereby the discursive become a kind of Matrix elevated to all-powerful status, and notions that it might in some way be limited are seen as ignorant and blasphemous.

And so in encouraging people to look at other options, I totally forgot or simly ignored a psychological law laid down ages ago by the NLP folks: Never argue with someone locked into a perspective. And when the perspective is a kind of fundamantalist fealty to the discursive mind, whreby all other points of view are projectd as blarney, then the the very idea of traversing new terrain becomes somethig to defend against, and as Jan pointed out, you just end up with people repeating what they believe in and seeking allies to bolster their perspective. And nobody goes anywhere.

Happy trails, amigos.

JL



cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
Nice pigeonholing, with just the right touch of unintended irony.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 17, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
. . . the joy of being "right" get so fossilized in the system . . .


That's right!

(but it's good to have a nice literate commentary again)

;>)
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 17, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
Discursive:

Proceeding to a conclusion through reason rather than intuition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/discursive

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
Proceeding to a conclusion through reason rather than intuition.

Is this your definition of discursive, Largo?

If it is, then you are basically walking a tightrope without reason. Sure, I can go visit Alien Abductees or fortune tellers or whatever wha wha, but if you seriously wish to convince people of an idea, you need some compelling evidence. The evidence could come in various forms; it doesn't necessarily need to be empirical.

Let's say that you are going to tile a floor. Do you go to the tile shop and buy the supplies based on intuition, or do you measure the area of the floor first?

All hail calipers. Glory be to newtons and newton seconds. Praise be to the inverse square law.

I bow down in wonderment at our ancestor the tree shrew. I need to have a talk with Norton about the tree shrew. He's hung up on us not looking like monkeys, when in fact we do (some of us more than others).

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am PROUD to come from a tree shrew, our common mammalian ancestor!

Give me an AMEN!

Credit: BASE104
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Hail to the half life of U/238!!!


Credit: BASE104

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