Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 28, 2013 - 04:02am PT
What I am mostly talking about is beyond a state, doesn't concern objectifying at all, and most of all, is neither concerned or unconcerned about content - but rather context - and so quite naturally the talk concerning this realm will seem fuzzy if not incomprehensible to the discursive mind. Not just yours, but everyone's.

The primary deal here is that "beyond a state" is just that. You can 'linger' and 'tarry', but there is little to be 'had' there other than taking the veritable pause that refreshes from your discursive mind. Passed that it's rather like trying to stop breathing, or stop your heart, or tell your hand to stop feeling, there is no other deeper 'place' of being or other insights of that statelessness to be had. That's not to say that practice can't yield lots benefits to those who practice, but that the limitations are by definition. Asking questions about it is like asking for information from the other side of a black hole's event horizon - it's unavailable to you no matter how long you spend meditating on this side.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 28, 2013 - 08:05am PT
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

1 John 4: 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

John 15:9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.



"What A Savior"

Atoning sacrifice
Keeper of this life
Hallelujah You are Savior
Beginning and the end
Forgiver of my sin
By Your mercy You have saved us

Jesus You are stronger
More than any other
Hallelujah what a Savior
Jesus You are higher
My soul's deepest desire
Hallelujah You are Savior

You are the shepherd king
You lead us by still waters
Hallelujah You are Savior

You are my only hope
Your kindness is my friend
In Your presence You restore us

Jesus You are stronger
More than any other
Hallelujah what a Savior
Jesus You are higher
My soul's deepest desire
Hallelujah You are Savior

You are the way, the truth and the life
You are my joy and my salvation
Stood in my place, taking my shame
Upon your shoulders

Jesus You are stronger
More than any other
Hallelujah what a Savior
Jesus You are higher
My soul's deepest desire
Hallelujah You are Savior

Hallelujah
You are Savior
You are Savior


...Jesus is the One and Only!
MH2

climber
May 28, 2013 - 08:58am PT

All (conscious) states of mind are describable, JL. Even if you say a state of mind is indescribable, or has no content, or is neither concerned nor unconcerned, you are describing that state of mind by contrasting it to a typical (discursive??) state of mind. That is fine. Where I object is when you talk about, "being totally present." It suggests degrees of 'being present' less than total: a scale with levels from 'not present at all' up to 'totally present.' A reader may wonder why you put aside the evaluating part of the mind. If that part is ignored or absent, how can you be totally present? Take your own advice and stay away from quantifying. The same applies to telling people they could be more conscious, awake, aware, or mindful. Leave the pseudo-numbers to pseudo-science. Just say that meditation has been good for you but you can't tell other people what to expect. I am pretty sure you have said that. Just a reminder. You have a justified skepticism about science being the answer to every question. But if Zen truly has no content, then it should need no words.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
May 28, 2013 - 10:06am PT
Blueblocker you asked me if atheists don't agree there is a God that pre-planned their lives and controls their destinies. I think you are correct. It would make no more sense to have this than to have atheists in heaven who didn't believe in it. If one day I woke up reincarnated as a bug I would be thinking more along the lines of Franz Kafka or HP Lovecraft, than in any kind of karmic bliss. Or if I were in an extradimensional space with all the loved ones from my life there too, or surrounded by white like in 2001 A Space Oddessy, I would seek refuge in the only possible explanation: I was in the Twilight Zone and had gone insane. Not only that, but until you get to heaven, you have no free will and an imaginary being is controlling everything. It sounds more like a psychosis than something that would give me solace.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 28, 2013 - 10:14am PT
It sounds more like a psychosis than something that would give me solace.

Insanity is bliss.




God made me say that.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
May 28, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
Quite an impressive list of atheists here.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/25/living/gallery/atheists/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

It's a growing list, too, I think.
Let's check back in one or two generations. ;)


Note the web page link. In Afghanistan, Iraq or Pakistan, it might read the "rogues gallery."
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 28, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
If the Rapture happens any time soon there will be only atheists here!
squishy

Mountain climber
May 28, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
If the Rapture happens any time soon there will be only atheists here!

That will be nice...
squishy

Mountain climber
May 28, 2013 - 02:16pm PT


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 28, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
If the Rapture happens any time soon there will be only atheists here!

and you won't be surprised when you don't wake up after you finally croak........

John 8;22;50
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
God told me that he was going to Only take the Good atheists, and leave all the people that didn't use their brain down on earth to rot in hell

And you got to believe it when it's God talking
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
May 28, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
Any of you fans of the Gifford Lectures?

Wednesday Steven Pinker, evolutionary psychologist, will give the Gifford Lectures at the University of Edinburgh centering on his latest book, Better Angels of Our Nature.

Best part: It streams live at this web page:
http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/humanities-soc-sci/news-events/lectures/gifford-lectures
squishy

Mountain climber
May 28, 2013 - 04:36pm PT



Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 28, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
MH2. Your protestations basically answer your own questions, through not like you would have it. And when you tell me what I should and should not do, can you get a feeling that, like Cintune, part of your mind is revolting to the fact that the discursive mind is not being fed in this conversation, and that this is simply forbidden. Note also that while people claim to have some interest in this subject, and that everyone with ANY experience in this arena has said it all starts with practice, not a single person has make one move in that directly, but rather they are entirely content to try and noodle the topic from known terrain, expecting me to toss out some tangible nugget to persuade them off their island. How are you not made curious by such an unadventurous take on the whole shebang?

I would be curious to know by what route you came to your conclusions that "presence" is a mind of unconscious, all-or-nothing phenomenon. I CAN tell you with 100 percent certainty that so long as you are fused to your evaluating mind, you will have a very low amplitude of presence with anything but - the evaluating mind. That's why we call it "awareness fusion." There is not a detached or free "self" that is present with what arises in consciousness, but rather just a conditioned self (with a small "S") who experiences most everything extruded through your let brain.

What that means, and I sometimes forget it here, is that by and large I am not addressing people who are present to the vast array of themselves and the external world, but am basically tangling with a slew of discursive minds demanding answers according to their own criteria, and only by way of that criteria. And when challenged to go a step further, the joking, flaming and so forth kicks in because there is no other game but the quantifying. Everything else being baloney or "predictable." You are betting against your own potential in this regards.

But again, the discursive mind will make no effort to move away from itself, that's why the work is so counterintuitive. Your mind will be screaming at you for ages till you simply let it rattle on. Only at that point can you start to understand that you haven't really been present to anything but the screaming in your ear. What you wake up to is not "The break that refreshes." And it is only your discursive mind that believes there is no limitation to symbolically representing or describing ALL mental terrain. I'd be interested in hearing what experiences you have had that convince you of this.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 28, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
What's really amusing is that anything you can possibly say is,
by your own definitions, going to be solely understandable to this
bugaboo you call the discursive mind. Hoist by your own petard, really.
And, understanding this, I've long since given up on gleaning any
"tangible nuggets." I mean, what's the point of even trying to
comprehend what you're on about unless I go find some sangha to
plonk myself down and tune in to all that sweet, sweet, unborn
contentlessness?

But turnabout is fair play. Care to tell about what got you into
this in the first place? All the awesome adventures you've shared
with the community-at-large over the years, yet you seem to imply
that this revelation of the mind tops them all. That might be a
better lure than, to paraphrase Jogill, "lecturing from a
position of arrogant superiority."
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 28, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
That's why we call it "awareness fusion" . . . etc

Is it just me, or does anyone else perceive
that these pronouncements are a religious
tirade against a reasoned existence? After all
this time I have more respect for go-B, whose
efforts at prosylitizing are honest and
undisguised.

Religion: A doctrine or custom
accepted on faith (Webster)

And there are some of us who have walked
an alternate path and who have found a
kind of enlightenment or a different
experience that we appreciated but that
did not require a total abandonment of reason.
I (we?) feel insulted by this constant
demeaning of science and discourse in favor of
speculative metaphysics. Or Zen doctrine.
We are constantly told that the "most important"
or "fundamental" or "basic" or . . . aspects
of existence lie beyond our naive sciences
and must be sought by cleansing the mind of
its rattling inner discourses and ascend into
a realm of pure consciousness . . .

Says who? Go back and look at that
video of the martial arts master "throwing"
his students. Now think of a Zen master
whacking his student into enlightenment.
I do not intend to denigrate those practices,
but I do not think they necessarily lead to a
greater appreciation of reality.

My own experiences led to an apparent
separation of "I-consciousness" and
physical body, but I am willing to entertain
the notion that that entity is a remarkable
illusion. But to pronounce that it MUST be an
illusion shows a closed mind conditioned by a
thousand years of meditative practices that may
very well have led to false conclusions. When
someone tells me "no - they lead to the truth!"
I think: religious disciple.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.

What about minerals, do they have an after life?
We know they have souls, Werner said so

Does God make sure they reincarnate into a new advanced mineral after they get melted down in the inner earth, and then reform into a new crystal a billion years later?

Does anything live forever?
Living things don't, we know that, why would they live on after they die?
Who said they do, God, or some story, or a book?

Why should anything live past death, the word death means that the living thing has died, right?
There is absolutely zero proof that there is life after death,
obviously, it's just a pipe dream made up by man of hope and salvation, because without life after death, there is No purpose to life

It's just a meaningless exercise in futility, that is the final word on the nothingness that so many seek.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 28, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
John, I'm not suggesting a "total abandonment of reason," and when I hear these accusations I don't personalize them, because I know that it is nothing but the discursive mind revolting at the suggestion that there is terrain that it simply cannot penetrate. It is also a kind of default that anything that does not square with the discursive mind must, perforce, be a veiled shot at smuggling "God" into the equation. That is simply not the case. It's worth noting that these positions and reactions are very persistent in this conversation. And the discursive mind by its very nature is jealous of it's hegemony. It will not give up control.

Metaphysics? Speculation? God? Beliefs? Where have any of these made their presence known in what I am talking about? With something that has no content, what are you really taking issue with save the injunction that there are realms that you simply cannot access via quantitative thinking. I have no delusions that the discursive mind will feel outraged at this claim. That's is exactly how it works.

I also think people are reading into this conversation a kind of hierarchy of importance that is not there. It's really quite simple. If you want to know about physical reality, the western science is the proven route. If you seek meaning, Western philosophy and letters is worth a look. If you want to probe your experience, being, and the unseen, you have to take a special route. There simply are no exceptions.

Cintuine wrote: Care to tell about what got you into this in the first place?

-

Sure. I was made curious about the workings of my mind, and how whatever I could call "me," I could also view it from a distance, something I first experienced when dealing with intense pain from a bicycle accident. I woke up to the concept of awareness being qualitatively different than a mirror function or simple self refraction. Or the brain "experiencing itself," and that kind of forked-tongued jive. When I went to look into this stuff the only people who understood what I was talking about - at least what I could find back then - were so-called Fourth Way schools, with roots in Sufism. These were almost cultish, and I wanted no part of that. Eventually I found Zen (around 18) because there was a Zen Center with an old Japanese master up at Mt. Baldy. He said to just shut my trap, sit up straight, keep my eyes open and listen till I died. Maybe things would get clear. The curtain would drop the moment I stopped listening and starting thinking or talking about it. I I wanted to learn about myself, I had to stop talking to myself (thinking about myself) and start listening. That was the start of it. With
Kyozan Joshu Sasaki Roshi, an old time Renzai Zen ball buster.


All the awesome adventures you've shared with the community-at-large over the years, yet you seem to imply that this revelation of the mind tops them all. That might be abetter lure than, to paraphrase Jogill, "lecturing from a position of arrogant superiority."


I would wager that your feeling that I am being an "arrogant authority" is hooked up to your fundemental position of scientism, which believes whole heartedly that there is nothing science cannot reach, that there is no limitation to that inquiry, that ANY conscious experience can be described in whole, and so forth. This, to me, is a remarkably arrogant and ignorant position, and at times I have rallied against it just to pull some strings, knowing how easily the discursive mind can get outraged, especially if it's authority is questions. It's like Hal on 2001. The reason I always challenge people to mention to us what experiences they have had to lead them to what are crazy summations of the work they don't understand, is that I known that have no experience at all in this realm. that they are just guessing, or are believing they have arrived at the same understanding though a reasoned approach.

So I'll just toss it out there again: We know that the evaluating mind doesn't believe that it has any primary limitations to investigate reality. That much said, what do YOU believe are the limitations of pure or practical reason, and why? And what experiences have you had to make you believe so?

JL
MH2

climber
May 28, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
And it is only your discursive mind that believes there is no limitation to symbolically representing or describing ALL mental terrain. I'd be interested in hearing what experiences you have had that convince you of this.


I'm not here to talk about myself. I prefer to see what ideas you get about me from other things I say. I appreciate what posters do share and it will be of help when I get back to my home planet.

; ^ )

To each his or her own.

jogill

climber
Colorado
May 28, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
John, I'm not suggesting a "total abandonment of reason," and when I hear these accusations I don't personalize them, because I know that it is nothing but the discursive mind revolting at the suggestion that there is terrain that it simply cannot penetrate . . . And the discursive mind by its very nature is jealous of it's hegemony. It will not give up control

I appreciate that.

But why do I sense that your reply is patronizing? Perhaps it's an artifact of my discursive mind.

Never mind. It's late.

I hope you are healing well.
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