Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 14941 - 14960 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 23, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
"Limitations of neuroscience does not mean mind and brain are separate. They are one and the same. No Brain No Mind."


Most of the people doing experiential adventures would agree that mind and brain are not seperate, and go one better, and say that nothing is seperate, including forms sans minds to reify them, which is what part of the Copenhagan interpretation of QM has always said (I am told).

However the comment that mind and brain are "one and the same" has never been explained with any precision, and whoppers such as, "mind is what the brain does," don't deserve serious consideration - we can easily see why. If the "same" belief could hold up to empirical testing, we'd only need to try and explain one of our experiences (what us humans often do) by way of neurobiological means. Quite naturally we cannot cotton to such an absurd exercise because we don't eant to hear break downs about objective functioning when we're asking what the girl looked like or how the pie tasted, which is the life we actually lead. As Mike pointed out, we don't live on the level of objective functioning.

One of the coolest mysteries about this process is appreciated by way of the "dial" thought experiment. We can see aspects of our consciousness fade or get "dialed" off when we add too much alcohol, fall asleep, get drugged up for surgury, get shot in the head, or die. But the process of "dialing up" mind, happens so incrimentally that any threshold, if there is one, is a subtle one indeed. But this too is a vast oversimplication.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 23, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
One of the coolest mysteries about this process is...

Which is why so many are drawn to neuroscience in the first place.

Why don't you try rowing against the tide of tradition (if not bronze age misconception) for a change. Use your fancy way with words and tropes to aid the science model. Or to come to grips with it. As it ain't so bad. Just a suggestion.

As it stands, you're only a Deepak Chopra of the climbing world.

"Deepak is an expert in using the maximum amount of words to say nothing of significance."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wi2IC6e5DUY

"whoppers such as, "mind is what the brain does," don't deserve serious consideration - we can easily see why."

Verily, how vain and fatuous this comment is from the vantage point of the 21st century and neuroscience. Really, who are you trying to impress, the gobes and blublos? Ever seriously ask yourself this question before you post? Seriously.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:12pm PT


As it stands, you're only a Deepak Chopra of the climbing world.

Wuz that humour? Arr,Arr! Funny, I think he's saying alot with alittle words.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
"whoppers such as, "mind is what the brain does," don't deserve serious consideration - we can easily see why."

Whooper? It's the major problem I see with evolutionist. Besides I think MikeL is closer to knowing god than Largo. Only IMO. MikeL is seeking. Largo is denying.


Verily

Where didyou get this word? HAHAHA! Still laughing from the last post


Exit: Seriously Fruity, look deeper.. Past the YouTube screen
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
Fruity, as usual, you ducked the hard question of resolving how the brain and mind, objective and subjective, heads and tails, night and day, are "the same things." The language used admits that even you, my fruitus, understand that both aspects exist. Now how about them being selfsame? My suspicion judging by your glossing over nuance is that you are out of your depth on anything outside of undergrad engineering models, but perhaps I have that wrong. I haven't seen much to suggest you grasp the experiential since you keep reverting back to objective functiong whenever the subject is broached. Like someone asking how the car drives and some dufus with ninety pens in his pocket, wearing highwater jeans, wing tips and white socks, keep trotting out blueprints.

What's more, "mind is what the brains does," begs the question: What does mind "do" that is different than brain? And if your answer is, "nothing," how do you tell the difference between them?

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:09am PT
Blue blocker is a nasty dude....Hahahaha.
You don't want to fork with him. Hahaha
WBraun

climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:13am PT
21st century and neuroscience.

Just plain dull matter.

Fruitcake couldn't think his way out of paper bag.

This why he always tries to dazzle with flowery words to impress fools.

We're not stupid fools like you though.

We don't don't fall for this kind of fluff.

Come back when you really have something of substance ......
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:37am PT

But the process of "dialing up" mind, happens so incrimentally that any threshold, if there is one, is a subtle one indeed. But this too is a vast oversimplication.

Just because there's an MRI lighing up with pretty colors when the patient is asked if he likes flowers. From what we "preceive" is the emotional part of the brain. Doesn't mean the brain is giving the answer. MAYBE that part of the brain is RECIEVING the answer?
From; MAYBE, the conscious?

Don't fork with me! LOL

BIGGEST moon of the century tonight!!! Don't miss it!
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:44am PT
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:26am PT
Thanks go-B
After reading ur hymns. I instantly busted out with a boisterous "Trust and Obey"
The Word brings The Spirit!

God did rest on the 7th day, after doing His work for 6 days. And since then He hasn't been
at "work" here. If true, this leads me to believe His 7th "day" is approx 7000 yrs long? And He's still resting? I believe Jesus' example, with Him working on the "Sabbath" leaves the door wide open. That the work of the Spirit is 24/7. I DO rest my body 1 in 7 days, just like He taught us to rest the Earth one year out of seven when we plant our food. Thus allowing the Earth to rest from the depletion of ingredients. Biblically and scientifically correct. But Spiritually? Who amongst us wouldn't go searching for their daughter if she came up missing on Sunday ?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:16am PT
This is for fructose and his science of better living, straight from the New York Times.

"Offering Atheists a Spiritual Home"

Some excerpts:

He was raised Pentecostal in DeRidder, La., a small town near the Texas border. In 2011, after 25 years as a preacher, he realized he had lost all connection to the religious point of view that had defined most of his life. He left the church and found himself ostracized in his hometown and from his family. Since then, Mr. DeWitt, 43, has become a prominent advocate of atheism, giving lectures around the region and providing an emotional counterpoint to more academic atheist exponents like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

“There are many people that even though they come to this realization, they miss the way the church works in a way that very few other communities can duplicate,” he said in a phone interview. “The secular can learn that just because we value critical thinking and the scientific method, that doesn’t mean we suddenly become disembodied and we can no longer benefit from our emotional lives.”

Services are gaining traction as outlets for organized atheism in places like London, Houston, Sacramento and New York, as well as at universities with humanist chaplains. In a deeply conservative region like the Deep South, they can serve a vital purpose: providing a sense of camaraderie in what many have found to be a hostile environment for nonreligious people.

Mr. DeWitt sees services like his as giving a human shape to a broad intellectual movement that is in its infancy. He believes that he and the others in the room are building something meant to last.

“Though this movement has had starts and stops throughout world history, right now it’s important to remember that we are young,” he said after a singalong to a song of that name by the band Fun. “Someday, what you are doing will become normal. Isn’t that a feeling?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/us/in-the-bible-belt-offering-atheists-a-spiritual-home.html?hp
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:38am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images. (...of men's making!)

Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.

1 Thessalonians 1:8 Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything. 9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

...This ain't no church bizarre!





Psalm 62:5 My soul, wait silently for God alone,
For my expectation is from Him.
6 He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be moved.
7 In God is my salvation and my glory;
The rock of my strength,
And my refuge, is in God.
8 Trust in Him at all times, you people;
Pour out your heart before Him;
God is a refuge for us. Selah




You Are God Alone

You are not a god
Created by human hands
You are not a god
Dependant on any mortal man
You are not a god
In need of anything we can give
By Your plan, that's just the way it is

Chorus:
You are God alone
From before time began
You were on Your throne
Your are God alone
And right now
In the good times and bad
You are on Your throne
You are God alone

Your the only God
Whose power none can contend
You're the only God
Whose name and praise will never end
You're the only God
Who's worthy of everything we can give
You are God
And that's just the way it is (...!)

By Phillips, Craig And Dean
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Jan, your piece shows people are in need and looking beyond the so-called "traditional forms." Indeed in unprecedented amounts because of this exponentially "sending" age. Note how currently unstructured many of these efforts are... and how abysmally "unstructured" they have been in recent history. The good news is that things bigger and more impactful are on the way to respond to these needs and views. And people everywhere (even the chronic naysayers of this thread who characteristically pooh pooh at any and every mention of innovation coming to traditional beliefs or attitudes) should look forward to this emergence, this development - at the very least they should be hopeful - unless they're accepting of, or satisfied with, the status quo in man's state or civilization.



Gee, I wonder if Abrahamic religions and their way of looking at things (sex, women, for starters) had anything to do with this "beating"?
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
1. How should we judge decisions made by primitive men and women or those from a different time or cultures? What standards shall we use? Should we ever judge at all? Are there incontrovertible standards of right and wrong? Good and bad?

2. I didn't know Mr. Sagan was an historian or a child psychologist. I thought his area was astronomy.

3. Yes, it would seem that we all change and evolve. (I won't dispute that here and now.) So with the grace of 20/20 hindsight (and the cultural beliefs of an era), we are wont to say that things need to change. Is there nothing sacred that should be kept or maintained culturally, pedagogically, scientifically, experientially? Should EVERYTHING be changed at all times: for example, what about filial loyalty, implicit promises made to the State, agreements to individual others, religious beliefs, scientific beliefs, how to properly construct houses, educational content, etc.? Shouldn't everything across the board be challenged and changed at all times? Are there ANY cultural precepts, principles, values, beliefs that are sacrosanct? Does anything stand the test of time?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
Are there ANY cultural precepts, principles, values, beliefs that are sacrosanct?

As long as change is normal in the universe everything is subject to radical transformation.
Even what is typically perceived of as "human nature" which is a continuous series of adaptions.

It could be said that our human and pre-human ancestors nurtured what appeared to be an entirely different set of cultural mores, based upon the ever- shifting exigencies of survival extant during their period.
Now things are different and so human culture is different -- in its choice of central precepts.
Some things have remained unchanged ;again because they continue to confer adaptive criteria.

What has changed in relation to ever- accelerating technologically driven cultural impermanence in our period has been the existential anxiety brought about by the bewildering pace of change--
especially by those individuals who are in some myriad of ways opposed to ,not accepting, or uninformed about nature of that perplexing change.

It matters little whether one is rooted in transcendental thinking or not. Every one of us must come to terms with the manifestations of ever- accelerating change . Even meditating gurus have cell phones nowadays, and easy access to the interwebnet.
I don't like a lot of it either-- but resistance is futile.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/2013/06/24/a-secret-society-of-cells-runs-your-brain/

Your neurons are outnumbered. Many of the cells in your brain – in your whole nervous system, in fact – are not neurons, but glia. These busy little cells shape and insulate neural connections, provide vital nutrients for your neurons, regulate many of the automatic processes that keep you alive, and even enable your brain to learn and form memories....
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Are there ANY cultural precepts, principles, values, beliefs that are sacrosanct? Does anything stand the test of time?

Himmler famously told his SS officers that they should be pleased and thankful if they felt a certain repulsion in killing Jews . . . it showed they didn't lack compassion, a human trait.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 24, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
Wow, never heard of that one. Happen to be reading Rudi Vrba's account of Auschwitz just now, I Will Never Forgive; not seeing any signs of compassion there, just horrific brutality from A to Z.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 24, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
One of my scientific heroes has a new Web site...

http://carolynporco.com/
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