Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 21, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
Not only does he strongly resemble my Uncle Leon (before he died) but I failed to mention some of his FAs are my favorite routes. These two instantly leap to mind:

Dappled Mare

Ten Karat Gold ( even though it was rap-bolted....LOL)

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 21, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Mr. Long,
Is this proof of urs, soul ly for ur concern of your peers' safety?
Or was it in fact, for the money?
Or, was it to prove that you could be analytical?

Jus Wonder'in? Great stuff though!!



Edit: I did buy all ur "How To" books by the way. Duecee sudjested it.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 01:52am PT
Hiya, from Wisconsin.

We should find common ground

That would be difficult to do for so many reasons that are all too obvious here.

I'm sorry, but there are times when common ground will not serve. You and others here seem to be perfectly fine with " . . . everything we know is only some kind of approximation . . , " science represents the best man has to offer, everyone is pretty impressed with the achievements of science, science promises to solve every problem that can be conceived, and folks here believe in the process of science with no reservation. (Do I have this right for the most part?)

For me, those characteristics lead to the worst possible position. "Close" and "pretty darned good" lead to a certain sense of accuracy and security, a sense of omnipotence, they emphasize materialistic objectives, and to me they are signs of complacency. (They also create beliefs.)

I'm happy to get along and not make waves, though.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 22, 2013 - 02:12am PT
Ok, .... How would you go about describing the dynamics of the atmosphere of Jupiter?

Does it really matter in the scope of the Big Bicture? But then if you do not ACCEPT the Big Picture, of course it would. Cus that is what this science is all about. Trying in way too complicated manner, to understand instead of just accepting the Big Picture.

Science has a big time issue with accepting things for what they are. It always struggles to induce the human element into it all. Ego. All human manifested ego. Nothing more.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 22, 2013 - 02:21am PT
Science has a big time issue with accepting things for what they are. It always struggles to induce the human element into it all. Ego. All human manifested ego. Nothing more.

Wha?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 22, 2013 - 07:58am PT
John 5:22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.


photo not found
Missing photo ID#307936


John 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 09:07am PT
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57590253/deaf-boy-with-auditory-brain-stem-implant-stunned-after-hearing-dad-for-first-time/

Wonderful story. It might seem to readers a story about the triumph of technology over the unfair effects of Nature. I see the inherent wonder of experience (its open-endedness, its spontaneity, its absence of graspability, its unity), if analysis can be put aside. All experience is like this (amazing), but people have been trained and institutionalized to normalize their experiences into mundanity.

There is no difference other than this between the typical, objective-oriented, analytical, mental-rational view, and a more spiritual view of reality. To the extent that one lives in a mental-rational worldview and believes in its concreteness, one misses the wonder. (Look how serious and concrete the world seems to be.) Yet the wonder of reality is all around, everywhere, in everything, unendingly. It's all there is.

This is true wu-wu; it comes from wu-wei.



EDIT: Look at the remarkable things that this woman now hears.

http://www.oprah.com/own-lost-and-found/Life-Changers-Woman-Hears-for-the-First-Time-in-10-Years-Video
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 22, 2013 - 09:25am PT
Science has a big time issue with accepting things for what they are. It always struggles to induce the human element into it all. Ego. All human manifested ego. Nothing more.


I see you guys are now blessed with the contributions of an astute observer of the human condition
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 22, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
To the extent that one lives in a mental-rational worldview and believes in its concreteness, one misses the wonder

Perhaps so ,but the the trade off is giving a little boy the capability to hear the human voice.

Kudos to the scientists ,surgeons, and other rationalists who gave the gift of sound to a little boy and his family who were otherwise condemned to a long life of subjective silence .

Imagine that , a worldview so alienated from reality, such as scientific empiricism , managing to nonetheless give a young boy the ability to hear his own father speak and perhaps a Beethoven Symphony thrown in for good measure.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 22, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
I liked that one, Gobee !

open door policy
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
. . . the the trade off is giving a little boy the capability to hear the human voice.

Like I wrote, one can read the story as a triumph of technology. You did. The fact that it can be read another way should indicate how significant interpretations are--and how much they impact not only objectivity (my discrete words) but subjectivity (their meaning) as well.

So, . . . are you're saying that if you Had To Choose, you'd choose hearing a human voice to wonder? (I painted a false dichotomy, didn't I?)

We're very strong in objective side of reality here on this thread, Ward, but not so strong in the subjective side of things. People almost fully discount subjectivity as wu-wu.

My reference to wu-wei suggests that it may be possible to engage in action without all of the rationalization that people tend to employ. It may be a difficult notion to get one's head around. I say it is possible to relax, be in the here and now, without being so overly concrete, serious, objective, and analytical.

Whadathink? Possible? Advisable?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 22, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
Like I wrote, one can read the story as a triumph of technology. You did. The fact that it can be read another way should indicate how significant interpretations are

I not only regard the story as a triumph of technology but I also regard it as a triumph, albeit small , for humanity in general. The hard work ,dedication , intelligence and brilliance of countless individuals behind the scenes, many unknowingly ,stretching back perhaps years, to make this a wonderful outcome for a little boy born deaf and his family grappling with his disability.
I don't know how anyone looking at this story could "interpret " it's apparent nature and import in any other way, frankly. Certainly one could , but to do so would be a paen to senselessness and insignificance., and irrelevance.

So, . . . are you're saying that if you Had To Choose, you'd choose hearing a human voice to wonder? (I painted a false dichotomy, didn't I?)

You're right , it is a false dichotomy. As if hearing (or any sense perception) and 'wonder 'could be rendered oppositional in any kind of meaningful way.
In fact, if this story is about anything it is about the ignition of wonder seen in the boys face ,or felt deep inside him, when hearing his dad's voice for the first time, or a bit of music, or the rain falling on the roof.

We're very strong in objective side of reality here on this thread, Ward, but not so strong in the subjective side of things. People almost fully discount subjectivity as wu-wu.

I don't know about that. Largo ,WBraun, and yourself seem to do quite well at establishing the Nehru jacket perspective . Albeit with a little too much hand- wringing from time to time. You guys are hardly an overly- beleaguered camp rendered majestically heroic by your "fighting to the last man " efforts.

I say it is possible to relax, be in the here and now, without being so overly concrete, serious, objective, and analytical.

I agree with that sentiment. It is why Martinis were invented.
Just don't overdo it......or you'll get a kundalini hangover.

Credit: Ward Trotter


Thanks for posting the story MikeL.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57590253/deaf-boy-with-auditory-brain-stem-implant-stunned-after-hearing-dad-for-first-time/
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 22, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
re: "free" will
re: pride and shame (as constraining emotions)
re: mindbrain works

Damn, wish I had said it...

"Thoughts and intentions (as a result of brain processing) simply arise in the mind. What else could they do?

"Now some of you might think this sounds depressing. This seems to take something away from us. It does. It takes away an egocentric view of life. But I think this can be tremendously liberating. We are not truly separate. We are linked to each other and to our past and to history. We are part of a system. And therefore what we do matters. You can't take credit for your talents, but it matters that you use them. You can't really be blamed for your weaknesses, but it matters that you correct them. So pride and shame don't make a lot of sense in the final analysis. But they weren't much fun anyway. These are isolating emotions. What does make sense is a commitment to wellbeing and to improving your life and the lives of others. Love and compassion make sense."

Worthy, I think, of 1,000 iterations per year. So it sinks in really deeply.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
the Nehru jacket perspective.


Yeah, I think that sums it up brilliantly.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 22, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Science has a big time issue with accepting things for what they are. It always struggles to induce the human element into it all. Ego. All human manifested ego. Nothing more.

Aww....sh#t.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 22, 2013 - 11:16pm PT

I don't know about that. Largo ,WBraun, and yourself seem to do quite well at establishing the Nehru jacket perspective


This kind of sand lot tripe totally discounts your credibility as a legitimate thinker on this thread, and posits you as a kind of glib but insolent yahoo. Or else, like I suspect, you either don't read the material, or don't grasp it.

If you want to put all your egges in a discursive bucket, that fine. Most do. But to actually believe that the other bucket is stuffed with Nehru jackets betrays a fantastic and Homeric ignorance for what is going on, especially in your own life.

To me, and probably to most anyone who's bothered to empiracally look at their own process, bottom to top, outside to inside, you are the avatar of the faceless man who is a stranger to himself, while smearing the very process which could trip the light switch on what you are totally in the dark about. Rather than ask legitimate and honest questions and perhaps learn somethign about yourself, you keep riding this straw horse off the cliff.

But I am curious what you would really like to know about the subjecive, or whether or not you too are pole-axed by scientism, believing as many do that anything else is the soft stuff. In my view, my hard-core objective work is in the service of culture. However on this thread, the cultural aspect is often shockinly subsumed to calculations, to where some poor saps have said that such lightweight thinkers as Aristotle, Socretes and Plato are of no consequence these day since quantifying has usurped all they had to offer mankind.

And Jesus wept . . .

JL



jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 22, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
My reference to wu-wei suggests that it may be possible to engage in action without all of the rationalization that people tend to employ

Please explain how this differs from acting on instinct, which we all do frequently, without thinking through what we are doing.

And your comment about scientists believing science can provide solutions for all conceivable problems is a stretch IMHO.

Your posts are indeed interesting.

(JL, watch those metaphors! ;>) )
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 23, 2013 - 12:03am PT
And your comment about scientists believing science can provide solutions for all conceivable problems is a stretch IMHO.

I agree. I don't think that even Dr. F has gone that far. Science is just understanding nature, and nature is a very big topic.

Then again, I think that Plato's Allegory of the Cave should be required reading for anyone with a brain. It applies to many real life situations.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 23, 2013 - 12:06am PT
This kind of sand lot tripe totally discounts your credibility as a legitimate thinker on this thread, and posits you as a kind of glib but insolent yahoo. Or else, like I suspect, you either don't read the material, or don't grasp it.

Dang. You could've led with the "don't read the material" line and kept the "insolent yahoo" in reserve . I mean if you suspect I don't read it or grasp it ,why lead with the "discounts your credibility ..." shot.

" Homeric ignorance " in my own life. Wow, It's as if you've been reading my diary.

Seriously, I'm about to quit and take my ball home.
Y'all Nehru dudes gotta watch the attrition factor, boss.
My feelings are hurt.

I won't post again here until you accuse me of honesty. straight up.



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