Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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May 11, 2013 - 12:11am PT
God did not cherry pick what to put in there

You'll find this difficult to prove. Look at anything that you do. You Did That? Really? Be honest. Don't you secretly admit that there were things that you did beyond what you are or were at the time, in mind or body. Somehow, didn't those things sort of do themselves, with you as a vehicle.

If you think about it, . . . cool . . . . isn't it? If you just relax in any situation, you'll find yourself simply doing itself.

Relax. Just let go.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 11, 2013 - 12:24am PT

May 11, 2013 - 12:34am PT
MH2: What is at play is the nature of empiricism and the working assumption that the world exists independently of human consciousness.

It's all you have, isn't it? I mean when you get right down to the core of your argument, this is it, isn't it? A working assumption.

As Morpheus said with a smile in The Matrix: ". . . interesting."

Dude, which pill do you want? The red one or the blue one?

May 11, 2013 - 12:42am PT
So why do they teach? Seems a bit disingenuous to say the least.

It's not like you have a choice in it. You show up in the job (name it) and they show up wanting to be shown. You have a role to fulfill. There's no fu*king choice in it.

You think you have choices? Cool. Become John Wayne in the next moment.

Don't play me. Be here and now.

Hebrews 1:3
May 11, 2013 - 06:01am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#302610

...oh yeah, Jesus is precious to me to!

May 11, 2013 - 10:55am PT
MH2: What is at play is the nature of empiricism and the working assumption that the world exists independently of human consciousness.

MikeL: It's all you have, isn't it? I mean when you get right down to the core of your argument, this is it, isn't it? A working assumption.

I am not clear on which argument of mine you refer to.

I do not see any need to explicitly assume that there is an independent reality. Most of us have a strong visceral sense of a world around us that we need to be familiar with to go about our daily lives. Both a 6-year-old and a scientist can share that sense. No explicit assumption about the nature of reality is needed. You can just go about your business.

The question about reality existing independent of human consciousness only seems to come up in philosophical discussion. Those of us who prefer the assumption that there is an external reality only need to say so in order to distinguish our view from that of solipsism or nihilism, or perhaps from fantasy and fiction.

Even if you don't assume that there is an external reality your body will do it for you. You could sit in one place until your bladder ruptured or you starved but the needs of your body will try to get through to your exalted consciousness and remind it that existence does not come free of charge.

The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 11, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
Don't play me.

But I have no choice.

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 11, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
I'll take a crack at those questions later. Right now I'm doing some work under the master . . .

Roshi Roxanne
Roshi Roxanne
Credit: Largo
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
I worry about her back

May 11, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
I'd love to do some work under her.

May 11, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
or over her.

Hebrews 1:3
May 12, 2013 - 06:24am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#302718

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
May 12, 2013 - 08:13am PT
Any Rabbi David Wolpe fans here?

Is Richard Dawkins really the world's leading intellectual?


Any Jerry Coyne fans here?

Rabbi Wolpe impugns Dawkins’s status as “world’s leading intellectual.”


Times ARE changing. :)


Interesting commentary from a Darr Sandberg at Huffpost...
The fact that animals have morality does not mean that it does not come from God.

You claim "Morality comes from evolution" - now you get to prove it. Starting with the most fundamental knowledge about existence currently available - the properties of sub-atomic particles - spin, charge, mass, etc -

work your way up to 'murder is wrong' or 'stealing is wrong'. You cannot invoke anything that is not a substantiated, scientific principle, such as the laws of thermodynamics, motion, etc.

At some point, however, the "substantiated, scientific principle(s)" for some of us - partic those of us who have studied / looked hard at the phenom all our lives -- give way to engineering-esque principles and "human functioning" principles - all of which inform our mental intuition (for better or worse among us) to eventually draw a judgment.

In the end it boils down to whether or not one thinks material brain (via quantum effects, e.g., or circuitry) sources ideas, ideation, sentience, feeling (incl moral feeling), etc.. Of course, as a mechanist, brain mechanist and more, this is the conclusion I've come to after many decades. In contrast, David Wolpe and majority of others think there's no way material brain matter on its own can do it.

It would be nice to eventually have a substantiable answer one way or the other, of course, as nothing else in all the cosmos and human condition carries more implications for our "art" in our many and various "practices" of living.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
May 12, 2013 - 09:26am PT
re: that atheist Hawkings

Pretty funny,
Hawkings says he has no need for GOD in his theory. Of course if you want to ask him a question you will have to go to the strip club and peel the stripper off his face. These people are absurd. GOD exist and one day they will have to answer to him.


Hebrews 1:3
May 12, 2013 - 11:39am PT
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

...your conscience will either confirm or condemn you! True peace is through Jesus Christ!

May 12, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
I have to wonder, when looking at Largo's master(s), just how I cook up all the thoughts in my first-person-experience... I ogle, therefore, I am... couldn't have anything at all to do with the way I'm wired, could it?

I asked my Corgi, Jake, the same question, but he simply looked at me, then at his food bowl.

I learn something every day from Master Jake.

Sport climber
May 12, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
Talking Dog Upset with his Master

Teach Me Master


Mckinleyville, Ca
May 12, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
I didn’t look because I doubt if those twin galaxies actually exist; they’re probably just in-your-face photons clobbering your retinas

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 12, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
To come up with a theory of mind without using the analogues of other creatures, and their observable consciousness is wrong. Anthropomorphism is rampant in this thread.

We know that an octopus is an amazingly intelligent creature. Have you ever seen the experiment where the octopus learns how to pull a cork out of a jar, climb in, nab the meal, take it out, and eat it?

An Octopus isn't even a mammal. It is a taxonomic kin to a snail.

Dolphins are mammals, and they are more or less the most intelligent group of species other than humans. That we know of.

Largo's idea that we have no idea what the world was like in the time before upright walking primates is ludicrous. There is a huge amount of evidence and work on that topic. It reminds me of Christians who think that we shared the planet with dinosaurs.

I am enjoying all of the references to The Matrix. That movie was terrific. I have the box set because a friend and neighbor is interviewed in part of it. He is an evolutionary biologist who wrote the first code that evolved.

They have a good hour of interviews with modern philosophers regarding the ideas in the movie. "How do you know that this is all real?" for example.

That existential question has been worked to death. When I first got turned on to existential philosophers, I thought it was really cool. I still think it is worth keeping in mind, but if any of us walked around and questioned every bit of sensory information, we would be paralyzed. Now I sort of lump them together, and the main ideas that I find most interesting are Plato's and Baudrillard's.

Their ideas are concerned with how people can manipulate other people's view of reality. This is a VERY lucrative idea.

Really, go read The Allegory Of The Cave, and then you can take off your training wheels for the modern world.

I think that false perceptions and realities are finally becoming very real. Communications has exploded. From the telegram to the telephone to the television to the internet. We are all tuned in now.

Clever marketers can now manipulate us. From a product placement, such as Bruce Willis chugging a Diet Coke, to political manipulation. So the Allegory Of The Cave is now a lesson that every person who is Plugged In needs to know. Don't we all have friends who have gone whacko over the last twenty years, with goofy ideas? First it was Limbaugh ditto types, but now it is everywhere, often so subtle that you don't realize it. I have a buddy and his wife who are now unbearable to be around. They went all Jesus and gun crazy.

This is huge. In the last two decades, people have become extremely plugged in. This begs the question of how some people can manipulate the ideas and perception of other people. I'm not talking about navel gazing perception. I'm talking about daily and every day life perception.

My theory is that those who are clever enough to control this new connected society are the ones who control the same things that wars were fought for: Money and Power. Pussy was the first thing that the internet was good for: Porn. Remember?

It is as simple as convincing you to spend 20 bucks on a water bottle or your ability to call bullshit and continue to use free 2 liter plastic coke bottles. There are other more subtle traps around now. Anything political gets twisted very quickly. The truth goes out the window. All that matters is controlling your perception, even if it is tiny.

Look at this Benghazi stuff. It is obviously a stupid waste of time to attack the President. People believe that Obama is the biggest crook ever, but they don't dare look back at our beloved Reagan, and see how many of his cabinet were indicted for felonies, and there were a lot.

This is the reality that I am concerned about. It might sound paranoid, but if you use, say, North Korea as an example of manipulating the minds of people from birth to death, you will see the danger.

I have a program that blocks companies from recording my tip toes through the internet, so I don't have an ad right next to this post. What do you guys see? Personal information is gobbled up constantly. Social networking sites exist only to gather your most intimate details.

This is a new type of perception, or at the least a very powerful way to control old perceptions in a new way. It affects your decisions daily, including morals, ethics, preferences, wha wha, you name it.

Right now, in this time and place, when I learn more from people that I have never met, rather than from my friends and neighbors, that the Allegory Of The Cave is becoming very real.

I'll go search out some whacko stuff, but if you trot over to the Republican thread, you will get a very polite dose of it.

This is why I have always said that the soft sciences are no longer very soft. They are now becoming the most useful sciences. So what if you figure out that this rock is 1.6 billion years old or not. What matters is only what people believe, and belief has proven to have little to do with the truth throughout human history.

As a study lesson, I will go find some of the more outrageous message threads and post them here. I will try to find examples of people whose perception of reality is so skewed, that they may very well have all taken the Blue Pill.

I have always considered myself a very Red Pill kind of guy. That is why I have always hammered on about critical thinking skills. If they aren't honed, you become a carp.

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 12, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
This entire conversation is clouded due to the lack of any input regarding ongoing discoveries in neuroscience. Neuroscience is a hot science now. The new brain imaging and micro anatomical studies are going to bury this.
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