Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 2, 2013 - 06:20am PT
Too much Indian takeout would be more like it.

From the Dalai Lama

We need to understand the inadequacy of an educational system so slanted towards material values. The solution is not to give an occasional lecture, but to integrate ethics into the educational curriculum. To do this effectively requires a secular ethics, free of religious influence, based on common sense, a realistic view and scientific findings.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 08:04am PT
whether or not God exists, whether religions are good or bad, science versus myth, evolution, instinct, politics, etc.--are all relatively unimportant. All of those things are red herrings. They may be analytically interesting, but they are distractions. Just look at your own consciousness, your own existence. Nothing else is worth examining.
MikeL.

What if you are already in touch with yourself?, you have looked and know yourself inside and out, then what??

I will tell you what, "the distractions", that's all there is!
Climbing is s distraction, work is a distraction, Carrying wood is a distraction, Talk about if God exist or Not.....
examine if life after death is real or not, all worthy distractions
Why?, because it's Fun, that's all we have left.

You seem to profess that we live in some state of delusional mystery. I'm past that, I want distraction.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 2, 2013 - 11:35am PT
What this tells me is that the external world is forming the nuts and bolts of our awareness- not the other way around.


Nope. You have it inverted. Since you dragged Kant into this, look at it this way:

Kant felt that we never have direct experience of things (the "noumenal" world). Rather, what we do experience is the phenomenal world as conveyed by our senses. This equates to the age-old subject–object problem. Where you are getting derailed is in ascribing the creative powers to fashion forms to some agency or non-agency "out there" - a natural enough impulse when we objectify things like evolution, where forms seem to change and morph over time.

Returning to Kant: He couldn't fathom the mind functioning as an empty container that simply receives data from the outside.

"Something must be giving order to the incoming data. Images of external objects must be kept in the same sequence in which they were received. This ordering occurs through the mind's intuition of time. The same considerations apply to the mind's function of constituting space for ordering mappings of visual and tactile signals arriving via the already described chains of physical causation."

IOWs, the mind is if fact largely doing what you are ascribing to those forces "out there."

JL
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 2, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
Dalai Lama
We need to understand the inadequacy of an educational system so slanted towards material values. The solution is not to give an occasional lecture, but to integrate ethics into the educational curriculum. To do this effectively requires a secular ethics, free of religious influence, based on common sense, a realistic view and scientific findings.


Credit: TomCochrane
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 2, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
I said (to Dr. F.) that naming a thing makes it less and false. The very act of labeling, of saying that some bracketed set of observations IS a thing, turns a beforehand open probability into a thing. That's the result of active observation. That's what Planck and Wigner are saying.

Well, I don't really think so, they were saying that about quantum particles, not tables and chairs. The reconciliation of the quantum and macro worlds is an ongoing pursuit, actually, there are many competing theories that attempt to bridge the gap, but no consensus yet.

I did not say that only happens at a particular level of analysis. I say that it happens at all levels, on any "thing" that you claim exists. Every thing that you say exists I say you defined into existence.

That's giving me more credit than I deserve, I think.

You imply they (Planck or Wigner) did not mean any or all levels of analysis (the macro and the very micro). Please provide the language they said or wrote that makes that distinction.

It's easy enough to see that they are talking about just the very, very tiny things, not everything. Much of the confusion has come about by way of Schrodinger and his famous cat, a thought-experiment he himself prefaced by saying "One can even set up quite ridiculous cases." The thing people miss is that the experiment is predicated on the decay or non-decay of a subatomic particle, which triggers the cat-killing mechanism. It's not about the cat at all.

My argument applies as high as you want to go and as low as you want to go. Your argument appears to say that there are different laws at different levels of analysis. I say, "How does that work, and how do you make commensurate or translate the differences?"

As i said, this is an ongoing puzzle that the best minds are all over as we speak. I am not among them, but it'll be interesting to see how it works out.

When I would ask you what a macro thing is--like a table--I ask, "what IS the table." You say something like, "it's made of wood." I say, "what's wood?" and you say, "it's made of cells," and we continue that until we are at the subatomic level or quantum level. Where did we make the transition where we left some laws that govern the macro level and moved to other laws that apply at the micro level? How does that system of different laws of realities work? When and where and how will you make them commensurate or work together? Where did the shift occur?

I suggest you're so deeply ensconced in your paradigm that you can't see the inconsistency and incommensurability of what you're arguing.

Of course I'm aware of it, but it's not necessarily inconsistent. Scale matters. For another example look at fractals. They're everywhere in nature, but they seem to not occur at the atomic level and below, and no one knows why that is just yet.

Yeah, sure . . . there's this one reality up here at the commonsense, everyday macro level, and then there's this other reality at the sub-atomic level with different laws and principles. How can there be two or more realities at different levels of analysis with different laws, and how do they resolve one another?

You're just not being very careful, honest, and systematic.

You're entitled to that opinion, but I think you're being premature; the jury is still out on this. Also, you seem to be conjoining studies of mechanics with existential questions that don't really overlap. This idea of "naming the universe into existence" belongs more in the philosophical/anthropological camp, for the time being anyway. And of course I appreciate its poetic validity there. In addition to LeGuinn's Earthsea Trilogy that I quoted from, the topic is central to the worldview of the Australian aborigines, whose whole mythic landscape was brought into being through songs that remain a strong oral tradition. That's all really cool stuff, but still, when I look at my desk and see a toothpick lying there, I'm not about to take any credit whatsoever for its existence, just because I have a name for it. The stuff out there is out there, whether I'm looking at it or naming it or not. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Been through all that "doors of perception" stuff too, it was loads of fun at the time, but you can't just be tripping balls all the time on the cosmic significance of the grain of sand. Or at least I can't, or just don't care to anymore.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 2, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Another bit of realism while we're discussing perceptions and misperceptions. A worldwide poll of Muslims has just been published and contains a number of surprises. Here's the paragraph that caught my eye.

.....they are in the middle of the pack when it comes to viewing their religion as the one true faith. About 33 percent of US Muslims believe that, similar to historically black Protestant churches (34 percent) and evangelical Protestant churches (36 percent). A higher share of Mormons (56 percent) felt that way, while the level was lower for a number of other faiths. Sixteen percent of Roman Catholics, 12 percent of mainline Protestants, and 5 percent of Jews in the US saw their religion as the one true faith.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2013/0430/Poll-shows-how-US-Muslims-are-like-Protestants-and-how-they-re-not/%28page%29/2

I've been maintaining all along here that a minority were being held up to represent an entire category which was not accurate. It seems the statistics also bear that out.

The clearest finding of this survey which was not discussed is that the most conservative Muslim attitudes only prevailed in those countries with very low education rates which also coincided with the most extreme dictatorial governments. Iraq and Afghanistan were of course at the top of the conservative list.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 2, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23482-mindscapes-the-woman-who-cant-recognise-her-face.html

Is this woman just not keeping up her end of creating the world with the rest of us?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 2, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
The reconciliation of the quantum and macro worlds is an ongoing pursuit, actually, there are many competing theories that attempt to bridge the gap, but no consensus yet.


This is another one of those "threshold" issues where something at one stage or level of complexity somehow "becomes" something at another stage or level of complexity, sometimes in ways so radically different than the supposed antecedent thing or condition that no one can supply an "answer" how the threshold was ever crossed that holds up to peer review across the board. These range from nothing "creating" everything, or rather, everything emerging from nothing at all; inorganic life self-organizing into self-replicating into biological forms, and biological forms "producing" consciousness, to mention a few. The threshold between the quantum and the next level of complexity up the ladder, approaching "things," can perhaps be lumped into this grouping.

It is interesting to consider the thought experiment that these thresholds do not actually exist in nature, that objective reality is ONLY the quantum level, and that everything up the ladder is some nameless admixture of mind and quantum stuff.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 2, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Cheers.

You seem to profess that we live in some state of delusional mystery. I'm past that, I want distraction.

Cheers.

Dualistic reality is a dream. To be disillusioned is to be undeceived. Mystery is undeniable. Letting-go of distractions brings wide and deep ease.

One is either confronting reality or denying it. To know a lie is to hate it; to see a lie is to destroy it. Slay one, take a step. Repeat. Lies and demons fight a rear-guard delaying action that expends our resources. They mean to occupy us, not defeat us, but they'll die from inattention. If you take a side, it has you. Battles are won in the same manner as they are lost. Don't take any side.

I follow The First Law of Objective Reality. (There ain't one).

Observation appears to be the only spiritual practice. Once you say, "that's interesting," all witnessing stops.

The impersonal realization of the absolute whole is incomplete realization .....

I wouldn't know.

The Buddhist believes the Christian comes to the final goal once they get beyond God experienced as a person. Christians say Buddhists must go one step further to come to the ultimate of a personal God.
Norwegian

Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
May 2, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
fcuk being borne again,
im looking for the
unborne escape,
im crawling back up
into the nearest vagina
of time's undoing.
WBraun

climber
May 2, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
The Buddhist believes the Christian comes to the final goal once they get beyond God experienced as a person.

So that is impersonalism.

Strange they would say that as Buddha was a direct incarnation of God himself.

So the Buddhist were/are following the personal feature of God and not impersonalism.

He preached only ahimsa (nonviolence).

It's impossible to only have nonviolence.

Doctors create violence against the material body all the time in order to repair it.

Violence is required and is eternal.

Buddha wanted to stop the vedic horse sacrifice.

The Brahmans test their Brahminical powers to release the soul of and old horse to get a higher body (human) so that it can advance spiritually.

As this age of Kali descended the Brahmans degenerated and used the sacrifice in a mundane manner to eat and mistreat animals.

There was never such an injunction to do such harm towards animals.

Buddha tricked and indirectly cheated the Brahmins to stop this nonsense and to cause further undo karmic reaction for their transgressions.

Only God himself can trick and cheat perfectly so that one can advance.

Buddhist philosophy is ultimately atheistic.

But Buddha himself was the Lord Himself so indirectly he still maintained the absolute truth by saying there is no god but just follow me.

After Buddha left Chaitanya Mahaprabhu defeated the impersonal mayavadi in a very famous debate and drove most of Buddhism out of India.

All above is just basically simplistic in a nutshell as it is far more involved and is far beyond the scope of this forum to go deep into.



go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 3, 2013 - 05:18am PT
1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment...

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

...our faith in Christ will not disappoint!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 3, 2013 - 11:07am PT
^^^^ THE GREATEST TRUTH EVER TOLD!

because the Spirit is truth.

I hope and pray everyday that all you smart people come to this realization soon..

This Truth NEVER changes. NEVER fluctuates. NEVER adjusts.
MH2

climber
May 3, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
the electron is a negatively charged, point particle which follows Fermi-Dirac statistics and has a finite mass...



The fewer words it takes to describe a thing, the better.

Reality, consciousness and spirituality are fine things but descriptions of them leave much to be desired.

Thanks anyway to those who attempt to talk about them, here.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 3, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
The fewer words it takes to describe a thing, the better.

I agree. When I'm in tune with the Holy Spirit, it starts out with words. But, instantly turns to
moanings of peril to the excitement of orgasim. And back. I've never had the words to describe the dream of tomorrow. But its given me Great comfort in the Truths of yesterdaY.
Without any WORDS
rSin

climber
calif
May 3, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
getting off on being afraid to orgasm

thought id heard it all...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 3, 2013 - 10:33pm PT

A highly controversial topic is the research which is showing that entheogen stimulated spiritual experiences seem to lie at the center of the main religions. Though of course hidden, sometimes even in plain sight, and only allowed for a select group of initiates. Most Christian people refuse to research and debate this topic, because it shows how much the true history behind early Christianity-like gnostic-shamanic cultures has been suppressed and perverted into different forms of mythology, idolatry and dogma.

It shows how much all main religions have strayed from the path of nature, empirical spirituality, honesty and freedom.

Especially entheogen-aware cultures are treated as a huge threat to the dominating 'Western' belief systems, political structures and egoistic/materialistic/mechanical thinking.

These days the Pharmacratic Inquisitions are still going strong to benefit the global toxic-medicine based pharmaceutical industry; using weak medical schooling, medical license systems, patent law, propaganda campaigns and important natural substance prohibitions.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican37.htm
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
May 4, 2013 - 10:53am PT
It shows how much all main religions have strayed from the path of nature, empirical spirituality, honesty and freedom.

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.


Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



...True Freedom is not freedom to sin, but in the forgiveness that is offered through Christ Jesus!
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 4, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
Where you are getting derailed is in ascribing the creative powers to fashion forms to some agency or non-agency "out there"

Yes I am ascribing those powers to the external world. If a form or event impinges on the brain through sensory awareness those forms are , for all intents and purposes ,thoroughly intact and self-contained before and after the sensory process; and are not altered by the mere act of consciousness.

The brain of course must modulate and filter the received stream of data, as I touched on earlier- lest we go mad, and are unable to distinguish between one and another and become overwhelmed with data.
This modulating process was suspected by Kant of having de novo creative powers beyond which he was unable to adequately delineate.
But this modulating and calibrating ,which the brain and the nervous system automatically performs, comes about ex post facto . All the elements that make up an object are already there in the external world : The light reflecting off its surface conveying color, size, dimension, the sound of it movement.
The brain has been formed by evolution according to the blueprint incrementally imposed upon it by the length and breadth of the external world acting upon DNA.
It has been fine tuned to organize that external into aggregates of awareness that can be translated into action based upon the rigid requirements of survival.
The human brain is like a lens that brings the world into sensibly sharp focus. The adjusting and readjusting act of turning the lens ,so that objects are made clearer, does not create those objects . Just ask the nearest photographer.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 4, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
Hey Go-B, good to see you, as always.

It is a pretty big step to suggest that consciousness or awareness arises from nothing. "Emergence" is the way you describe it.

We are all born with this ability. Our species has adapted this way. A toddler can learn language faster than any adult. That has been proven.

Our brains continue to grow after birth. I've heard ages tossed around from 16 to 20 years old.

I will believe in this spiritualism when I am confronted either with truth or compelling evidence. Bible passages and meditation won't cut it. To prove something that is this extraordinary, you will need some good evidence. Until that time, I am going to go on trying to live a good moral life.

By the way, when you are presenting an argument, and jump from A to Z, without looking observing the other numbers in the alphabet is called a non sequitur, which is a fancy Latin lawyer phrase meaning "Does not follow." I could also ask about the excluded middle, which is another no-no, or I could also point out cherry picking your information.

These are all basic rules of discourse that keep things on topic, fair, and on track. It works well in politics, because 99.9% of the population doesn't give a sh#t about rhetorical rules or critical thinking.

I know what it is that you are describing, Largo, but here we are several years into this and you flatly refute any statement. I don't do that. I don't have enough confidence to flatly say anything, but if you were looking over my shoulder worked, it would blow your mind. It is all interconnected and very difficult to visualize.

That ability to visualize a problem out of raw data points is mentally very tough. These are all thought experiments, and thought experiments are our form of voodoo consciousness.

Is it like that with you, Ed? Have any of you been thinking about something for maybe five years (of course doing other things at the time) when the lightning strikes. Like I have said, you jot it down before it evaporates like a dream.

Most of them don't pan out, but now and then one does, and it is very cool.
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