Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 14781 - 14800 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MH2

climber
Jun 16, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
simultaneous oneness and difference .....


A succinct statement of a larger truth. Neither a lumper nor a splitter be.




edit:



That should read: Both a lumper and a splitter be.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 17, 2013 - 12:58am PT
simultaneous oneness and difference .....


You struck gold, Bwana . . .
MH2

climber
Jun 17, 2013 - 01:07am PT
(You ARE saying that you know nothing, aren't you?)



Maybe. I'm not 100% sure.


I'm surprised that you called 1+1=2 a math question. What is the question?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jun 17, 2013 - 09:44am PT



Because we all need to hear it everyonce in a while
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 17, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
People, . . . please. Emptiness is not nothingness or vacuousness. Emptiness means that things manifest (they appear, they seem), but when attempts are made to grasp an appearance, nothing can be found, there's no final answer. You can see, feel, touch, hear, and taste it, but you can't grasp it, you can't get to the bottom of it, of anything. You can know and experience it, but there is no definable, graspable, definite existence to anything--not even your own consciousness. Impermanence and interdependence are often used to explain or buttress emptiness, but even those terms are misleading. (Words, terms, signs, always fail.) Emptiness presents a sort of abyss. It LOOKs empty, but what has to happen when on the edge of the abyss is to jump off. (Whatdayamean??) Jumping off means to let go. "Letting go" means to take your hands off the most obvious, gross controls that we all think we have over our lives and let the super-subtle interfaces and navigational controls begin to operate. You can't begin to see any of this until you give up being so heavy-handed with reality. Just relax. (All this probably reads incomprehensibly.)


Good writing, Jan!

This awakening stuff can be confusing depending upon where one is at in an unfolding. As one begins to unfold, there are mountains. This is where seekers start. There are worlds, universes, things, feelings, etc., and they all appear concrete, serious, and real. As seekers begin to get plugged in (as their consciousness begins to see itself and its processes), things (the universe) starts to become translucent, things become more difficult to "find," things increasingly begin to show themselves as constructions or as simple mental elaborations without any real substance. In time, things lose existence for a person even though things have appearance. This is the beginnings of enlightenment, Kensho, non-duality, pristine awareness, rigpa, etc. In other words, the mountain disappears; the mountain no longer exists.

Zen is one of the most successful practices producing realized beings of all. Among the most significant Zen dharma masters, the process to enlightenment could take around 7 years of intense earnestness (along with favorable karma). However, that process is not completed until (as Jan pointed out) the enlightened being returns to the place they began--only now with a fully assimilated enlightened view. Then the mountain is once again a mountain. Fully realized beings simultaneously see both conventional reality and ultimate reality. To everyone, externally, they look as normal as you or I. It's been said by fully realized beings that that process of full assimilation of realization takes a minimum of 3 years, but most usually 10-20 years to fully assimilate the realization of truth (actually, a realization of non-truth) so that all questions are answered.

As for whether full realization is personal or impersonal, it's like everything else in reality: not one, not both, neither both nor not-both. It's all very confusing until you see it in any form. (This is where words and labels don't work.) For example (as Jogill may have pointed out in his climbing reference), when you're "in the zone" (flow) when climbing, oneself and the rock are not different, but not the same. (Flow is not the same as non-duality, but it's something that most climbers have experiences of, and is kinda similar.) When the perceiver and perceived drops off in those rare moments of unity, lucidity, openness, and 'emptiness,' then what's left is perception alone. "Perception of what?" you might ask. Perception of being? . . . No, even that's too much said.

I disagree, MikL. You cast your net far too widely.

Science is no more noble than any other activity, John. No one gets to be more privileged than any other. Not Christ, not the Buddha, not the rapist, not the scientist. Everyone is in the same boat, and everyone is going to the same place. Folks here on this thread rightly (IMO) show a lack of respect for "the truth" of myth in religion. I'm saying that positions of privilege (political, intellectual, moral, etc.) are all false, constructions, and lead to delusion.

If you believe that, for example, evolution is an operational process / theory that represents the truth of the way the world is, then why not fully invest in it, and eschew things like materialism, morality, intellectualism, political stances, etc.? Evolution, cause-and-effect, pragmatism, practicality will all work themselves out for "the best" in the end, won't it? Isn't that how the theory works? What you, I, Largo, Werner, the U.S., or scientists do will make no difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things.

Quit evaluating. It's a useless activity, and it's an obstruction to seeing how things really are. No thing is real. Relax. As Tony Soprano said in every episode: "Hey! Take it easy!"

I also said what I said about scientists (academics who supposedly are oriented to Truth) because I've now worked at 6 different institutions (most you would have heard of) in three different countries over the past 30 years, and I've seen what the Practice of Science looks like. It's just a business. It's as much of a racket as automobile assembly, the military, investment banking, consumer goods, teaching, or the clergy. None of it is wrong or bad. None of it is right or good. It is what it is.

The important thing is to see what IT is. Do that, and all evaluations become meaningless. (You can call the nihilism if you want, Jan, but it's not even that.)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 17, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
I forgot to say . . . .

We can argue about which sacred teacher said what with regards to what another spiritual teacher (perhaps that's Dawkins, or a physicist, or Sri Nisargadata, or Christ, or the Buddha, for you), but teachers are like diving boards. They mean to show you the water. The point is not to hang out on the diving board. The point of having and listening teachers is for you to jump in. It's up to you. That's how everyone learned to swim.
MH2

climber
Jun 17, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
That's a wonderful evocation, MikeL. We know that words are poor vehicles but we make what use of them we can. You should seek your version of what is good. Everyone should. You can tell others they should stop evaluating and that such-and-such is useless but let it remain a suggestion. It is far more powerful to show by the example of your actions in daily life (or inaction if you prefer).
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 17, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
Fully realized beings simultaneously see both conventional reality and _ultimate_reality

I repect your position, Mike, but I fail to see how you conclude what you have experienced is ultimate reality if you also conclude nothing is real or true. Isn't it possible your epiphany was a delusion, like so much else you have encountered?

Have these experiences brought you peace and comfort? Do you greet every new day with a fresh and open spirit - everything new and wonderfully challenging? The staleness of tedious repetition vanished? If so, then you are certainly blessed.

Your comments about the world of science are true to a certain extent. I was in the research game (lightly) for a number of years and there most surely are unpleasant competitive aspects quite similar to being in the climbing "first ascent" game - trying to get there before others. It's a strange mix of support and competition - like watching competitive gymnasts helping each other before competeing against one another.

But now that I am no longer part of that process, I have come to truly appreciate the guidance
and intellectual pointers given me, allowing me to continue to play with abstract math ideas and create (or discover) new theory. I could be carving wooden ducks in my old age, but instead I am able to produce (very modest) mathematics. It's a joy, and I am thankful for being able to participate in explorative intellectual adventures. I get a little thrill every time I discover something new, no matter how trivial. I have never regretted becoming a math professor.

Thus my career in its modest way has opened my eyes to wonders - much as you describe your attainment of ultimate reality.

There are many paths . . . none better than the other.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 17, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Maybe one path is no better than another. But don't for a second believe that all paths can and do lead to the same terrain.

It’s worth understanding that there is a great and recognized specificity in these paths, arrived at through many centuries of trial and error. This is generally not know or appreciated per the subjective world. But in fact nobody encounters the heart of emptiness by happenstance anymore than someone ignorant of mathematics will accidentally encounter diophantine geometry during meditation.

Again, anyone arguing this point has not done the subjective work, bcause everyone who has, knows this as a fundamental truth.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 17, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
Whoa, Jogill. I'm not enlightened. I don't see all of the untruths for what they are (which would reveal what IS true). I have not de-programmed myself just yet. I'm just an egg. I do see a couple of things as well as you see the wall across from you, though.

My writing comes from reports that I've read, and they fit with what I've started to see (so far). I am a strong skeptic of everything (in case you didn't notice). I follow no one, and I claim no belief as true. What I've come to (the little bit that I have) I've done on my own--which I think applies to anyone's life. If I suggested I knew everything for sure, I mis-communicated. Sorry. I've read, I've studied, and I've tried many things looking for what was real so that I don't die at the end of this life like a cow.

Have I experienced ultimate reality? I don't think so. I have found myself in a movie of sorts, and the more I notice / look, the more the movie view abides. I find that view off the pillow now more than I find it on the pillow. Do I have peace and comfort? More often than not. (Don't most old people?) More important, I am finding out what is true for me.

Personally, things in my life are getting: lighter (less serious), easier (somewhat effortless), absurd (regular life looks more and more like some kind of bizarre sitcom), mysterious (I can't explain much anymore--not really), spontaneous (like how fireworks pop in the sky), intelligent (things are showing up exactly at the right times and in the right places for me--as if designed to be so), with equanimity (all things are looking equal to me). With that said, I care about people suffering (poor them), but I don't think I can do anything about it (suffering is an inside job, it seems). Pain and pleasure have become equal but different experiences to me; both are actually interesting.

I must report that my wife makes complaints about some of this. There is much I don't really care about so much anymore; that is, I don't think that anything much matters anymore (you name it . . . it's all just unfoldment to me). Chairs, mortgages, nations, and human rights seem ok not-to-care about; but when those same attitudes get applied to her or our marriage, then it's "Katy bar the door." My wife puts on the armor and gets ready for war. We have had some difficult conversations.

I'm detaching a little bit from this life in a gentle way with every passing day. I smile, I joke, and I get involved in probably most every kind of conversation that any normal person would, but very often I think I'm doing so because it's what my role calls for as a husband, teacher, or colleague. But . . . so much of it seems silly, meaningless, and inconsequential. Even Enlightenment, which used to be pretty important to me, no longer seems all that special. All objectives and achievements are obstacles. What I find interesting now is simply the journey / adventure / process and the truth. But I'm not driving this bus.

I don't know what I'm doing. I'm stumbling around probably as much as the next guy, the only difference might be that I'm doing that a bit more deftly than I used to. I'm feeling my way around like a person in a pitch black room--carefully, gently, with my hands out around me, using all of my senses (and some I didn't know were available to me) in an increasingly nuanced way. Nuance looks like infinity to me. It's becoming an art form. Earlier I had 5 senses and my thoughts to connect to reality. Those now seem the grossest of connections. My interface with reality is becoming more like a corpus callosum.

The sky hasn't opened up and shown me the final horizon, Jogill. It's just not like that. It's a little bit more like stumbling into Alice's Wonderland. (What a strange place this is. ) I don't even know if I'm sane or not. But, it doesn't matter, you know?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 17, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
It’s worth understanding that there is a great and recognized specificity in these paths, arrived at through many centuries of trial and error.

I think that's an accurate assessment, John. I also think that Werner here has made some useful distinctions. He said, I believe, that some paths may not be right or appropriate for certain psyches. Jan may have some thoughts to add to that.

It was a disappointment to think that most of Tibetan Buddhism has not adapted to American or Western psyches. American (and other nationality) students left for Nepal and Tibet to learn from the most advanced practitioners, but have come back Tibetanized, speaking, praying, and strictly following Tibetan practices. But Westerners are not Far Eastern. Buddhism has something important to expose / communicate to Westerners, but it probably isn't the rituals, language, or artifacts.

Zen has done better than most in this regard. The Zen Mountain Monastery in upstate New York looks modern, pioneering, and suited to Western sensibilities. Buddhism escaped annihilation in India by transplanting itself in Tibet, Nepal, China, and later Japan. To do so, it adapted. Those states exported Buddhism to the West, but my experience (working for the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition under Lama Zopa) does not suggest that it has adapted to Westerner's' needs and ways. I think there are many people who would be ripe for some 'untruth realization.'

I think one must be their own guide by being really skeptical and seeing for themselves through their own experiences. I think the latter is what you've been saying all along.

I dropped out of teaching for about 7 years to consult, but when I returned, I had found that the generation of students had shifted while I was out. Generation-X had given way to Millennials, and what a different set of sensibilities they presented. It took me 2 years to "get" them so that I could facilitate communication. This younger generation is different, and they need different approaches. What I am and how I teach had to change as well.

I used to think that things happen for a reason. Now I think that things that happen are instead symptoms.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 17, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
I dropped out of teaching for about 7 years to consult, but when I returned, I had found that the generation of students had shifted while I was out. Generation-X had given way to Millennials, and what a different set of sensibilities they presented. It took me 2 years to "get" them so that I could facilitate communication. This younger generation is different, and they need different approaches. What I am and how I teach had to change as well.

Can you expand on this please? What is different about them from a teaching perspective and what are the different approaches? I'm curious as to your observations.... will you indulge me?

DMT
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 17, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
DMT:

Pardon my intrusion but generational research has been a sort of hobby of mine for a few years. I use to go on Neil Howe's website and argue several points of contention with some of the other members , including Neil himself.
My disagreements usually centered around the historical fine points of the generational archetypes , but I would also argue some of the metrics involving the start and ending points of the cohorts, which usually involved some sketchy historical implications.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_theory

http://www.lifecourse.com/
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 17, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
Thank you, Mike. I appreciate your candid and informative reply.And I too am interested in what you have to say about the current generation of students. I left the profession 13 years ago.

But don't for a second believe that all paths can and do lead to the same terrain

Of course they don't. I never even hinted they did, John.

But once again I sense a defensive posture and a patronizing tone in your message - am I wrong? - as if my pathetic journey can't measure up to the real thing, since much of what I do requires logical analysis and is not purely experiential.

And once again, the real thing may indeed be what you advocate. But at the present time that becomes a matter of belief, of faith, IMHO.

And once more I point out: If one believes that nothing is quite as it seems and truth, whatever that means, is vague and insubstantial, then how can one conclude that the void or emptyness or vacuum or ultimate consciousness that one experiences upon prolonged study and meditation is somehow the final and penultimate discovery?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 17, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
but have come back Tibetanized, speaking, praying, and strictly following Tibetan practices. But Westerners are not Far Eastern. Buddhism has something important to expose / communicate to Westerners, but it probably isn't the rituals, language, or artifacts.


I was always too proud (a character defect) as an American to start aping the customs of other nations. I would gladly have gone to an American meditation center had the teachesr seemed up to speed. They are now, for sure. And the best ones, in my eyes, stay centered with the practice and not the cultural trappings. But this is simplistic, and the whole shebang cannot be truncated or reduced to the basic parts since it's the overall Gestalt that helps break us out or our trances, mostly though ritualized pattern interrupts.

I'll have to think about this one . . .

John wrote: But once again I sense a defensive posture and a patronizing tone in your message - am I wrong? - as if my pathetic journey can't measure up to the real thing, since much of what I do requires logical analysis and is not purely experiential.

I think I come off harshly because I only take a second to dash off (sorry for all the typos) these responses and use very curt language. My bad.

I think all journey's are the real thing. My point is that, for example, tough science (or studying languages as well) and serious internal adventures are not accidental studies and they don't yield the goods via whim and slapdash efforts. You really have to buckle down with the internal stuff because it is so unnatural and counterintuitive, and our brains are so used to tasking on things.

Anyhow, to use your example, logical analysis will render results we can NEVER attain by, say, abandoning our atachments. You're simply not going to arrive there through that discipline, any more than I can take Pacific Coat Highway to Yosemite. Verily, that road don't go there.

JL
WBraun

climber
Jun 17, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
Relative truth is within Absolute Truth ......

but Absolute Truth is independent of relative truth ......
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Jun 17, 2013 - 07:32pm PT


"Absolute truth" we will ALL know too soon!!!...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 17, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
This younger generation is different, and they need different approaches. What I am and how I teach had to change as well.

I heard this a couple times lately. From the local schools.

Funny how we've gotten to where the teacher has to acomondate the pupil.

That's a difference between our teacher The Lord Jesus Christ. He NEVER changes!!

Seems to be alot of so called Teachers and Preachers telling the masses what they WANT
to hear. Schools handing out condoms like its homework. Schools helping 12+yro girls get abortions without the perents consent.
Now the schools are telling kids that if their not "happy" in their own skin. They can get a free operation through UC Bizerkly to change their sex. Now in L.A. a high school sophomore,
Joe, I mean Josephine wants to play on the girls tennis team. Should he, I mean she be allowed? I'm sure our "teachers" will tell us soon.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 17, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
You're simply not going to arrive there through that discipline, any more than I can take Pacific Coat Highway to Yosemite. Verily, that road don't go there

I agree without hesitation. Different paths lead to different outcomes. I suppose then it is the nature of the various outcomes we tend to argue about, and I am willing to entertain the notion that your non-discursive process yields a more fundamental result. It's not that serious a matter for me.

I'm just happy I don't carve wooden ducks.
MH2

climber
Jun 17, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Somewhere a master decoy artist just felt a twinge which he took for indigestion.
Messages 14781 - 14800 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews