Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MH2

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
All you know is your own consciousness. The rest is belief.


That's your belief. A lot of our disagreement has to do with words. English and other languages have ambiguity. When you say 'consciousness' you do not bother to define what you mean. You have to assume that someone else makes a reasonably good guess about what you are talking about. Consciousness is a term we use for a whole constellation of observations. When we compare observations we can get closer to a mutual understanding. You need a process for making comparisons. You need something like observation, hypothesis, testing.

To say that all you know is your own consciousness leaves too much unsaid. To say that the rest is belief also says too little.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 15, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
When we compare observations we can get closer to a mutual understanding. You need a process for making comparisons. You need something like observation, hypothesis, testing.
--


Assuming that this is an "inside job," that we're not going to try and guess what's going on in the playhouse by studying the architexture, so to speak, where do you suggest we start in terms of observation?

JL
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 15, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
From what I understand, there is little evidence in most people's lives that they ever made any conscious choice about what they believe.


wow, that one just floored me, John Long

honestly, I have always thought the opposite in that ALL people made conscious choices based upon what they do believe, yet you say there is little evidence they do so

John, please elaborate so I can better understand?
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 15, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Lots of standard everyday choices are just done automatically
after learning. Like driving a car fast in heavy traffic and ignoring
the risk to yourself and others. A fairly standard choice made by f^cktards we all see everyday on the road.

Climbing is also a choice, although some get into a zone where the choice would be to stop climbing. It has a look. Sometimes its looking back at you from the mirror.



cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
It has a look.

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
Good lord, it's not complicated or difficult.

1. Ask anyone, to include yourself. "Are you conscious?" A yes or no will do. There's no reason to define it. Everyone pretty much knows what you're talking about. If for some reason you find that too complex of an idea, ask them if they have awareness. That'll do.

2. Prove that anything exists other than, "I Am" without a scintilla of a doubt. If you can't do that, then what you have is a belief.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Depends what you mean by "prove," dunnit?

Most things are proven by consensus. Of course if you pull the rug out from under perception itself, nothing can be proven, but in that case you're just imagining that you're reading this anyway.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
I guess I was thinking scientifically for this group. But if reality-by-consensus is what rules here on this thread, then I have nothing to say and no point to make. You can disregard.

EDIT: Next time we can just conduct a poll and find out what reality is.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 15, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 15, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
70% of American ADULTS believe in Angels

50% believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old

someone explain just how this America got to this point?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
someone explain just how this America got to this point?

People are bound to believe in all sorts of things, some true -some false.

You yourself believe in things that are demonstrably false. You wouldn't be human if you didn't.

The fact that many scientists , engineers, and outside contractors at NASA during the 60s were born again Christians , for instance, in no way impeded their ability to put man on the moon.
Nor did the fact that most of the framers of the Constitution were Christians or unaligned theists -- did not preclude them from crafting a brilliant national founding document.

Many people who fervently believe in what you or I might consider outlandish are nonetheless decent, good people , who are productive, hard working, honest, and even brilliant.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
You yourself believe in things that are demonstrably false. You wouldn't be human if you didn't
I await your demonstration.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
I await your demonstration.

If we were to do a minute objective analysis of Norton's belief system, whatever that is, and my job were to demonstrate something incorrect or false, and your job would be to demonstrate that Norton is flawless-- who do you think would win that one, boss?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
a minute objective analysis hardly sounds like an "obvious and provable manner"

What does Dr Ed believe in that is demonstrably false? He's human, right?
Donini?
Mighty Hiker?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:38pm PT

What does Dr Ed believe in that is demonstrably false? He's human, right?
Donini?
Mighty Hiker?

This is one point you will just have to trust me on.
You got your seat belt on?

Okay here comes:

Dr. Ed, and the others are not perfect. There are things these individuals believe in that are wrong.
The only other option is the opposite, namely, Dr.Ed is perfectly right about everything. He is flawlessly right about all existence. Ergo he cannot be proven demonstrably wrong about anything. I won't even try.

Hopefully Dr. Ed can fetch himself to this thread and start reiterating his beatific infallibility --provided he is available at this moment.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
That's a good point, but I feel your choice of the word demonstrably is a bit strong.
Indulge me:
ask Norton questions about his beliefs until you can demonstrate one is false.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
ask Norton questions about his beliefs until you can demonstrate one is false.

ya know, I have been feeling pretty stupid after others so effortlessly understand how there is little evidence that beliefs influence consciousness and what we do, if I even paraphrased JL correct

the reason I am not getting it must be because I am using the conventional definitions for "beliefs" and consciousness, and you guys are using some language way past my intellect
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:48pm PT


Indulge me:
ask Norton questions about his beliefs until you can demonstrate one is false.

I don't have the time nor the passion.

Besides that sounds like something right up WBraun's alley.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
If you had made the statement about Wbraun, I would have agreed with your choice of words.
MH2

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
1. Ask anyone, to include yourself. "Are you conscious?" A yes or no will do. There's no reason to define it. Everyone pretty much knows what you're talking about. If for some reason you find that too complex of an idea, ask them if they have awareness. That'll do.


Then consciousness is not "the hard problem" of Chalmers. JL please take note.



2. Prove that anything exists other than, "I Am" without a scintilla of a doubt. If you can't do that, then what you have is a belief.


Can you prove that "You are" without a scintilla of a doubt?
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