Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 26, 2013 - 11:19am PT
Believing oneself to be a spiritual genius whatever the cause, is a well know delusion along the way

Good one. Time for all who dwell here to reflect upon this . . .
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 26, 2013 - 11:26am PT
I contend that its a wild goose chase, nothing more.


Craig, no one has a problem when you say that you "contend" that everyone, for all time, in all spiritual paths, have been on a wild goose chase. Where you loose all credibility is in insisting that you KNOW this as a manifest fact because things cannot be described to you according to your own criteria. That's like an adult version of the boy taking the ball and going home because the others wouldn't play his game.

Reread Jan's comment on "quietism." Here's a woman who has spent much of her adult like in these pursuits and knows a few things. Quietism is a phase we all go through, repeatedly. That's why we need a group, a shagha, something to reality check.
JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 11:36am PT
There should be examples of enlightened people, there are not.
There should be all kinds of evidence for what you tell us exists, there is not.
You try and circumnavigate the truth with ideas like "we can never know", "Our minds can't think outside the box"
One diversion after another, there is always a way out being accountable.

It's all about searching and never achieving, that is a wild goose chase.

Yet on this thread, I am the one pillared for desiring proof, logic and rationality.

and instead, I get illogical BS, no rationality and zero proof.
It's not my criteria that I expect to be fulfilled, I am just looking for a sliver of something, anything, and you can't provide that, You have absolutely nothing to bring to the table.


Craig, no one has a problem when you say that you "contend" that everyone, for all time, in all spiritual paths, have been on a wild goose chase.

Yes, I can contend that, if no-one made it, if no one became enlightened, if there is no God, then it was all a futile quest other than what it may have done for them in other parts of their life.
Why? Because they were on a wild goose chase, they never caught the goose.
WBraun

climber
Apr 26, 2013 - 11:46am PT
There should be examples of enlightened people, there are not.
There should be all kinds of evidence for what you tell us exists, there is not.

The absolute "Expert" speaks. "THERE IS NOT"

His proof, logic and rationality is always absolute.

The mini impersonator god Dr F expounds his perfect proof, logic and rationality of absolute truth.

We will now worship the cult of Dr F ....... :-)

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 26, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
Mike;

In the fullest sense, Craig is right. It's no big deal.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 26, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
You have absolutely nothing to bring to the table.


You're exactly right, Craig. But my understanding and experience of nothing is not the same as yours.

I'm reminded of an old (very old) poem:

They sometimes ask about Stone Mountain Way;
There's no one route that climbs straight through.
In our hearts, I'm not the same as you.
If in your heart you should become like me,
Then you might reach the summit of it too.

This does not make the teller of this poem better than anyone else. He's just "not the same as you." You're mistake is in insisting that he is. Insisting that he is, is silly.

If you once and for all quit chasing the wild goose, or if you caught him instead, there where would you be? Where your logic finally runs out of road is the starting line.

JL
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 26, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
my understanding and experience of nothing is not the same as yours

Have we wandered into a Samuel Beckett play? Waiting for Godot?


;>)
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Apr 26, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Largo said

This statement is the wildest speculation, presented as a known fact. That's why it is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst.


Wow, that's really mean. Maybe you should go back and meditate some more.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 26, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Actually I think they are very similar. I can't understand physics because I don't know the mathematics. Likewise, the objectivists can't understand meditation because they haven't put in the time and training. If I learned the math I could objectively understand physics and if others put in the time training, they could subjectively understand meditation and spiritual stages. Mike L and I understand Largo perfectly well and his understanding is no different than masters of many paths. There is a framework for the subjective but you can not comprehend it through logic anymore than I can get a grasp of math through art history or poetry.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 26, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
This whole Master thing sounds like guru worship and Ed, you know perfectly well that no Stonemaster is going to boot lick anyone, period. So leave off this silly sycophant angle because it's entirely bogus and has nothing to do with anything real. You and many others have an almost impossible problem handling the idea of an expert in the experiential field because achievement cannot be objectively demonstated so you can get it. In fact it can be demonstrated, though not perfectly, but that is the entire reason to have face to face sessions with a skilled and experienced teacher. It is not to kiss the person's robes - the idea is comical to me. But rather to have your bullshit called so often and so thoroughly that nothing is left. You never get there, but it's progress, not perfection.

Ed wrote:

Once again, each has a particular domain... but independent of how you received the knowledge, at least for the objective side of the house, if your predictions are testable, and they pass the tests... you're good.

I don't see how you do that on the subjective side...

--

When has there ever been an experiment that was carried out in a house that did not harbor the subjective? You talk about this as some independent realm existing all by itself. Where? And where is "out there."

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 26, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
Well, I love ya, Craig. Guaranteed. Really.


I know I'm prying, but I ask: is there some event or experience that has brought you to your views? (Is there a post that I missed?) I mean, . . . it doesn't Really matter, does it, whether there might be something that goes way beyond what the fives senses would lead anyone to believe? If it is, as you say, a wild goose chase with nothing to achieve, then why not blow the whole stupid thing off? Other people do. Are the words you write your way of doing that?

One more question: is "evidence" only what the five senses bring to you, or could evidence be other than what you strictly perceive?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 26, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
My point is regarding the transference of objective teaching is that it doesn't require someone to tell us we've got it right or wrong, there is a way of checking yourself independently. Checking yourself is something taught at all levels of learning objective knowledge.


Actually this is not correct in my experience. That's exactly why traditions have set up lineages, so the knowledge can be handed down or transmitted not in the usual means, since it is not quantifiable information, but though other means that are very rigorous. It is perfect? No method ever is where there are humans involved. But if any student is given any kind of title or teacher status, you will generally find that he or she had put in at least ten years of ardent practice (NOT just study). Some with 50 years of practice doing the selfsame things is likely to know where that person is along the path given that they have seen and been around that person over a period of years, under all circumstances. In some sense the teacher is a kind of spiritual parent, that's why sexual transgressions between students and teachers are always considered the worst kinds of betrayals.

JL
WBraun

climber
Apr 26, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
No master needed there

Master is always there whether one "Thinks" needed or not.

One can not make even one breath without the Master.

One can not do anything at all period with out the Master .....





BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 26, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
I do a lot without a master. Really, after you are out of school, to keep up with things you must read a lot and go to a few seminars. The seminars are great bullshit meetings between the talks. You can download everything after you get home and pursue it at your leisure.

You can teach yourself physics. You may even be the most prolific physicist of your generation. There is nothing stopping any of us but fear and laziness, which when you look at a big physics equation, is certainly the first option.

You should be able to teach yourself anything physical, at least in principle. Werner can go on and on, but I pay little attention to it.

Valid. That is indeed far easier to say when dealing with any-thing. When you talk about no-thing, it breaks down from a critical point of view, and with that comes doubt, and with doubt comes questions that aren't allowed.

If you don't allow questions, then what are you doing?

Without a form of perfect communication, like what exists in mathematics, how would I know that I am having the same experience as JL, even if I had studied at his side for a lifetime?

This has been the problem all along. The spiritual side of things, when you describe them as REAL, are not, by definition, describable to the person next to you. You may think so, but I don't believe that you can know so.

Such is the saga.

BTW, that brain article that Ed referred to:

http://physics.aps.org/articles/v6/47

is pretty damn wild.

I admit that I do believe that a time will come when the brain, and the mind, will be completely understood. It will probably be different than our current understanding suggests to some degree, but it will happen, if we are still around as a species.

Saying never is very unstable ground when you have a lot of interested humans. Many walls have been knocked down since the first telescope looked up and it showed the church some irritating stuff.

Isn't it amusing that the Christian got pissed at you, JL?

Wow, that's really mean. Maybe you should go back and meditate some more.

WBraun

climber
Apr 26, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
The sun never rises from the west .......
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 26, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
I'm glad Ed has such confidence in my ability to learn math. I have equal confidence in his ability to progress in the subjective world. The question is will we and if not, why not? I dare say his phobia against the subjective and its gurus is equal to mine about math and the folks who taught me (the high school football coach among others). The difference is that I don't doubt that math exists, I just don't partake of it. I readily admit that it's a language and a culture that I don't understand.

As for the subjective, I've had the experience of talking to people with very different world views such as Christian pentacostals with a fundamentalist theology, but when we compared our experiences, we understood we were talking about the same thing. They were astounded and I was not surprised. When I went to their services I felt many of the same energies as I do while meditating in a Buddhist temple and they have the opposite experience even more to their surprise. In fact I have hand drawn charts I used in comparative religion classes showing the seven chakras and the five major stages of spiritual growth of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Catholic Christianity and the Bible laid out side by side.

As in math, things get progressively more abstract as one refines one's understanding. Thus the levels that Mike L and Largo are talking about are hard to understand if you haven't been there. Ed has intuitions about climbing, I can balance my checkbook. Both are at an elementary, but very important level compared to the totality.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 26, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
The sun never rises from the west .......

The sun never rises. The Earth spins in the direction that we have agreed to call "east." The Earth is the thing that is moving, not the sun, in this sense.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 26, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
I'm pretty sure Werner knows about the rotation of the earth. I took it that he was doing a parody maybe, of Chairman Mao's revolutiony slogan, the sun can rise in the west.

While technically incorrect, it inspired a lot of Chinese peasants to throw off their oppressors. Poetics does sometimes have power.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 26, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
while I can practice some of the asanas on my own, it seems I over do it when I do

This was my experience with meditation too. I kept thinking if I tried harder, I would make better progress. Counting breaths never worked for me as my discursive mind always made it into a competitive exercise - faster, longer, deeper, more thoughtfully etc. When I gave up counting and just breathed, I made progress.
WBraun

climber
Apr 26, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Modern yoga followers sit and become agitated in a few minutes.

Valmiki Muni sat for 60 thousand years before he became calm.

How will modern man do it?
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