Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
True meditation is to purify the mind from material contamination.

All the senses must be purified too.

Then one enters their original state.

Not that one stops thinking.

Stopping thinking can never be done.

But purified clear thinking can.

The gross materialists never understand due to their material contaminated minds.

This is why they are "Mental Speculators"

Their minds are always filled with nonsense ......
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 25, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
well then the assumption is the opposite is then true

No. That's called all or nothing thinking, otherwise known as a thought distortion.

that the best way to learn about the world and yourself is NOT TO THINK

as in, a blank mind, with eyes open


What is your experience with maintaining a "blank mind?" What is it, in your experience? What makes you curious about it?

what exactly is then "learned" by not thinking, at all, for a period of time?

Nobody can tell you that since it varies radically person to person. But a lazy approach of merely noodling the question will yield no results. Try doing the simple things BASE suggested and tell us what you find. 50 to 1 you won't bother - but I'd love to be surprised.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 25, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
Enlightenment is just a concept. Don't look for altered states. They don't abide.

"Being" is meditation, a non-meditation.

The only thing you learn about at any time, anywhere, in any situation . . . is yourself. Silence is the great teaching.

What do you learn? You learn there are no tenets of belief to buy into, there are no devotions or faith conditions to revelation, there are no rituals to interpret or structures to understand. Simply experience here and now. In the here and now there's no progress, no personal growth, no maturity, no evolution, no meditation, no discipline, nothing to do, no place to go, nothing to discriminate, nothing that feeds prejudice or bias, no one or no thing to change, no controller, and no control. The here and now is free-form display. It is natural perfection seen by a wide open mind, directly and nakedly.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 25, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Mike has just done a fine job of pointing towards the realm of presence, from which we derive the term, human being.

JL
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 25, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
__True meditation is to purify the mind from material contamination.

All the senses must be purified too.

Then one enters their original state.

Not that one stops thinking.

Stopping thinking can never be done.

But purified clear thinking can.

The gross materialists never understand due to their material contaminated minds.

This is why they are "Mental Speculators"

Their minds are always filled with nonsense ......__
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 25, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
__True meditation is to purify the mind from material contamination.

All the senses must be purified too.

Then one enters their original state.

Not that one stops thinking.

Stopping thinking can never be done.

But purified clear thinking can.

The gross materialists never understand due to their material contaminated minds.

This is why they are "Mental Speculators"

Their minds are always filled with nonsense ......__
Quote Here

Crazy 'ole Werner kinda gets it! I really hate all the purist, buddhist, hindu crap, but the afterlife and the maker are there. Likes spokes ona wheel, religion goes round and round. Each spoke is a faith.....all lead to a "hub".
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 26, 2013 - 07:46am PT
I really hate

That doesn't fly well in this thread. Please go away or be a very good listener.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 07:59am PT
I meditated for years
and was easily able to go to the No-thing state
it just takes practice, like anything

and my opinion?
not very earth shattering
general anesthetic might be an appropriate term, thanks base

But just wait for it... 3-2-1...

But Dr. F!!!, you weren't doing it right....
I can guarantee you I was doing it correctly, I'm just verbalizing the way I can now describe it, after making the transition to being more educated about the workings of the human mind, it can do so much, and achieving the no-thing is just another thing it can do.

I just contend that the no-thing is actually nothing, and getting there is not the answer to anything. It's just another wild goose chase. There is no pot of gold, it is the nothing. And can better worded as "none existent".
WBraun

climber
Apr 26, 2013 - 08:12am PT
I meditated for years and was easily able to go to the No-thing state.

Now we know you are full of it and just throw words around like the wind with no real weight.

Valmiki Muni practiced yoga meditation for sixty thousand years before attaining perfection.

Kardama Muni took ten thousand years.

But as we know you'll just take this and spin it into whatever you're fertile brain comes up with
and project that onto this response since you really have no real clue.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 26, 2013 - 08:16am PT
FInally

an answer to my question

Mike said:
What do you learn? You learn there are no tenets of belief to buy into, there are no devotions or faith conditions to revelation, there are no rituals to interpret or structures to understand. Simply experience here and now. In the here and now there's no progress, no personal growth, no maturity, no evolution, no meditation, no discipline, nothing to do, no place to go, nothing to discriminate, nothing that feeds prejudice or bias, no one or no thing to change, no controller, and no control. The here and now is free-form display. It is natural perfection seen by a wide open mind, directly and nakedly.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 08:19am PT
Here and Now, Yes!!

I still live in the Here and Now
Credit: Dr. F.

WB, the no-thing state is Not enlightenment
It's just a blank mind, thinking of nothing, nothing entering your mind except pure nothing, letting yourself be free of everything....

It's invigorating, leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling, and helps in your day to day life by reducing anxiety and worry. It also aids in focus, and living a moral ethical life.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 26, 2013 - 08:40am PT
It's just a blank mind, thinking of nothing, nothing entering your mind except pure nothing, letting yourself be free of everything....

It's invigorating, leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling, and helps in your day to day life by reducing anxiety and worry. It also aids in focus, and living a moral ethical life.
------


I have no idea what Craig is describing here, nor have I ever heard of ANY meditation practice that aspires after a "blank mind." A quiet mind, sure, but I would liken "blank" to deadness, if one were ever to achieve it. TGhis, along with "fuzzy feelings" and other states and things having nothing to do with my own practice convinces me that whatever Craig is describing here has little to do with what I have been driving at all these months/years.

JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 08:41am PT
Wrong!

Attack the messenger, thanks alot

To bad you can't describe what the hell your talking about
So typical

Blank = dead??
Lame
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 26, 2013 - 09:09am PT
Wrong!

Attack the messenger, thanks alot

To bad you can't describe what the hell your talking about
So typical
-

I'm not going to harp on this, but look at it this way. What if I said that I had studied biochemistry in the privacy of my own home, "for years," with no instruction, no feedback from others per what I was or was not doing, no experts to actually teach me, then I declared, based on my own experiences in a vacuum, that I had entirely exhausted the entire realm of biochemistry and was henceforth in a position to make sweeping catagorical statements about what it is and is not - all in totally absolute terms. And far wonkier yet, I demanded that the only way you could convince me that there was anything at all to biochemistry was if you could break it all down in spiritual terms. Nothing less would be acceptable.

What I am basically saying is that you have an idea that spiritual practice is a solo endeavor, when in fact it is, and always will be half apprenticeship, half personal adventure. Trying to negotiate those waters with no guide, at all, ever, is like sailing with no compass. Perhaps that's why your practice never got past relaxation and mind settling exercises.

That's not it.

JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 09:13am PT
You still haven't told us what your mind does, and if you have gotten past mind relaxing practices.
As far as I'm concerned, I made it way past you, since you are still rambling on about nothing.


This is just the typical, "I'm doing it right, you did it wrong" BS of ALL Religious practices.

Every religious person says the same thing.
You and Werner are in the same camp, claiming a big bag of nothing is the answer.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 26, 2013 - 10:13am PT
I'll try to make a few distinctions, but there are no real distinctions to be made. I'm just talking.

A blank mind without thought isn't quite what's being pointed at, but it happens. Werner said that one can't stop thoughts, and that appears to be exactly right, for to do so entails thought, will, feeling, or images (imagination).

The exercise of asking what thoughts are, where they go, where they come from, what they're made of, is meant to spur an investigation about whether they exist beyond their apparent manifestations. ("Huh? What?")

All phenomena are manifestations of inconceivable creativity and unlimited energy. Think of yourself as an immense battery driving a random access memory accessing data using certain patterns (stipulated by karma). The result is a free-form display that cannot be grasped or described.

Thoughts have content, and they have energy. If you look closely, you may be able to discriminate the two. If you can muster the wherewithal when hooked by them (really hard to do), then you can de-emphasize (let go) of the content and re-direct the energy for transformational purposes. (This is tantra.)

Most people get hooked on the content in thoughts, while a few of us get hooked on the specific energies (e.g., melancholy, anger, drug haze, etc.). Letting go means becoming disinterested, seeing that things are not quite as concrete and serious as they seem. Letting go is not an active action; it's a "non-action." You wait patiently.

Waiting patiently enables "self-liberation." Every phenomena self-liberates; nothing lasts, not anything in front of us or inside of us. If there is a strategy (and there really isn't, conceptually), it's "relax," "take it easy," "rest." Everything self-liberates. The more you relax, the easier it becomes, and the more you notice.

Bare awareness is the ground of consciousness, but bare awareness is covered by all that random access chatter and emotions and imagery that gets projected. Like John says, you get a brief glimpse of bare awareness for milliseconds between thoughts.

All of the above is paradoxical, metaphorical, and impossible to "do." Words and articulations follow suit and sound ridiculous in everyday conversation. Emptiness and form, no-thing, non-action, manifestations without existence, awareness without consciousness, etc., all these things challenge the thinking mind. (Even those concepts need to go.)

In the fullest sense, Craig is right. It's no big deal. It's the only deal. There is nothing other. What might be worth talking about is delusion. But even delusion is itself the result of perfect, pristine, bare awareness. More paradox--a sign the thinking mind can go no further.

So, why get involved? No reason at all. No more reason than a flower.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 26, 2013 - 10:25am PT
Craig, i would read Mike's words very carefully. IMO, you are fused or enmeshed with stuff, things, forms, etc., believing they alone are the holders of the Fleece. What's more, you are demanding that they MUST be the fleece, and therefore are describable in the same manner in which we quantify a bluebottle fly. But the fruit of this is just a geyser of impermenant, morphing stuff, including consciousness and mind itself. In trying to botle this geyser so you can tell the world what it really is, is to miss the point entirely. And saying any of this has much to do with religion, as you say, and that all of it is the same, is not a studied view.

I would ultimately say that if what you're doing is bringing you the results you want, if you are pleased with your progress. Great. And only you would know. If not, perhaps consider another approach. Or not. But as with any human endeavor, judging all mankind by dint of your own personal experience is a very slippery slope, and at some time you loose traction altogether.

JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 10:35am PT
JL, you just make stuff up about me to make a point
Please refrain from your typical character assassination of me.

My words about meditating were abbreviated, just like you, I couldn't verbalize every angle, or thought, or no-thought.

and Just like I can't say what you do is right or wrong, you have no right to say what I do is right or wrong. You have no idea what I may have done, or not done.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Apr 26, 2013 - 10:55am PT
I think it's quite possible from what Dr. F has said, that he is confusing what has traditionally been called quietism with no thing ness. There are many detours on the path and that is a well recognized one. It is essentially a blank mind kind of narcotic and people who wander off there do often think they have reached enlightenment when they have not. Believing oneself to be a spiritual genius whatever the cause, is a well know delusion along the way.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 11:11am PT
Wrong
I never said I achieved anything.
See, I open my self up, and you accuse me of faking my spiritual experiences, or they were at a lower level, or that I was deluded, all that is so weak.
If I was on the other side, telling you what a great meditation I just had, you would be praising me for being a great example for the benefits of being a spiritual human and so forth.

I am just saying that what everyone claims to be something doesn't exist.

Show me enlightenment, show what Largo is talking about, or MikeL.
It's all the same, there is nothing there, it's all talking around something that is greater, but not achievable.
I contend that its a wild goose chase, nothing more.
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