Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 14601 - 14620 of total 22348 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:52am PT
The base jumper has faith he will not die.

Braun is right as usual. He trusts his skill. He trusts the manufacturer of the wing. He trusts that what he percieves to be a 1000 foot cliff is indeed a 1000 foot cliff.

Trust (faith) is earned. It is earned by testing.

testing (earning) is science.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
MH2:

I don't think I've met anyone who is as good as you are at providing responses that circumvent questions. It makes it difficult to take you seriously. Perhaps that's your intention. That's why I've said, "it doesn't matter." Taking potshots from the bleachers is cheap and for the rabble. It's cute but not substantive or responsive.

Non-fiction is not a genre of story in any literary sense. (See Northrup Frye, Robert McKee, Lalos Egri, Mieke Bal, Wayne C. Booth, Gerald Prince, Benjamin Chatman, Gerard Genette.)
MH2

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
MikeL,

You asked a question. I went a little outside the frame you presented to answer it.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 12, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
Craig, there's no merit in arguing the same thing over and over. It's like two bald guys fighting over a comb. Where you get hung up is that you don't believe there are realms where discursive reasoning will find no traction. Or put differently, you do not belive that discursive reasoning has any limits. Therefor you keep demaning discursive "proof" for that which doesn't exist. Here is where you lose your way. Instead of understanding that no discursive proof is forthcoing because none can exist in these realms - at least as you'd like it - you don't acknowledge the shortcomings of the discursive, rather you call said realms imaginary for lack of what was never there in the first place: discursive or "graspable" data. You can wait for another million years and there sill won't be discursive data streaming out of emptiness any more than a bunch of figurs will describe your wife. There are limits to any mode of inquiry. You simply don't believe that this is so per the discursive. We all understand that you believe this with all your heat and soul. And if you have made all the progress you like in spiritual terrain by that method, best to you. Share the wealth. But demading what none of us are saying is there ("subjective equations") betrays a kind of cognitive loop that is almost painfuol to watch.

If you want to understand why the discursive is limited, I touched on it in my discussion about how awaress - narrow and wide - works when we are discursively working through something. I tried to make that clear but maybe it wasn't. It's all easily verifiable if you take the time to find out for yourself. There's no eforrt to try and snow you here with juju LOL.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Going outside of story ("non-fiction") is far more than "a little outside the frame," MH2. It's categorically outside; hence, irrelevant.

On the other hand, you might be saying that science is as much of a story as any other piece of fiction.

I'd agree. That would make science fiction.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
WB - Everyone has experienced it, everyone has it within them naturally.
but, not everyone activates it. and i was talking specifically about spiritual faith (what The Chief was also alluding to).

it doesn't take much faith to walk or drive across most bridges. it does take faith, though. faith that it won't collapse, although they sometimes do.

it also takes faith, or requires that you exercise the initial spiritual faith, that God is real. i'm talking about the God of the Gospels. He will reveal Himself to anyone that does.
MH2

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Going outside of story ("non-fiction") is far more than "a little outside the frame," MH2. It's categorically outside; hence, irrelevant.


You can find it all in one library, MikeL.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
Hey Splitter!
This is where we met around this time last year. Wasn't it? Faith:
'Cept, I was talking about go'in out in the morning and having faith that my old truck was going to start..

I've certainly added to my measure by participating in this thread.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 12, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
^ Kudos, bro!

Hebrews 11 (the faith chapter).

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 12, 2013 - 03:30pm PT

"Comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable"

John
8:22:50
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
. . . there's no merit in arguing the same thing over and over . . . Where you get hung up . . .

On the other hand, you might be saying that science is as much of a story as any other piece of fiction. I'd agree. That would make science fiction


No comment necessary.


Thank you, Jan, for your informative and unprejudiced posts.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 12, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
You don't want to stand before God in your own righteousness, like the emperor in his new clothes...

Revelation 3:17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

...try them on for size, you'll look sharp!
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 12, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
In the spiritual realm, the opposite of faith is fear.

One requires faith, the other ones power is fear.

edit: they are opposites, but work the same way. God will do nothing without faith, Satan can do nothing without fear.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 12, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
^^^^God nor Satan (Good nor Bad) exist in the Spiritual Dimension. The two are based on human ego. As well as fear. Non-existent. It can not as there is no such thing beginning nor end. Birth or death. Those elements are all of human making. The material/physical platform is merely a vehicle.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
and where did you learn that ^ ? your ego is being feed a lot of crap (lies).

deception, spiritual deception is alive and well. why do you think he is called the great deceiver? he has you in the palm of his hand.

i came face to face with both. so will you sooner or later. one will deceive you till the end.

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
"No comment necessary" is a comment, and it reveals prejudice as much as any comment does, Jogill. If you use words, you expose beliefs. Try "not communicating" with any word(s). You might as well say what's on your mind.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
and where did you learn that ? your ego is being feed a lot of crap (lies).

Ego?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
You might as well say what's on your mind

Not much room to squeeze anything in here between spiritualism and religion. If I were asked to choose between the two, I would probably go with Jesus and the Baptist Church in which I was raised. The lessons of the New Testament are more palatable than this endless spiral into emptyness facilitated by denying one's sense of personhood; I consider my experiences with I-consciousness to reveal that that is the essence of being human. And yes, this is a belief, just as no-thingness is a belief and not simply an experience. If it were completely experiential its advocates would explain it once and not keep grinding on it.

But then I am reasonably well-adjusted and old to boot.

So, exit another science type.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
I guess those last coupl of posts is what John The Revellator meant by;

"Afflict the comfortable"

Eh Norton?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
If it were completely experiential its advocates would explain it once and not keep grinding on it.
--

The reason people keep grinding on it is not because it is something beyond a direct encounter, but because people keep trying to interpret what it is from the outside, or contrasting it to their own boundary experiences, or offering a zillion reasons why NOT to reach into your pocket for the doubloon, not one based on solid empirical evidence or experience.

What this shows us all is that changing our perspective is VERY difficult to accomplish, and even the smartest amongst us will seek to discursively transpose what is evidentally unknown to them into terms that they know by heart.

JL
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