Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Somewhere out there
Apr 24, 2013 - 06:37am PT
Its always easier to see the absurdity of the religion after the fact....

But how is it possible this guy had a church at all.... and with people watching the whole time...


Apr 24, 2013 - 07:51am PT
Why do you keep putting up stupid sh!t like this Jingy?

It's just plain garbage and is your baseline of what you "think" is religion.

It isn't anything except garbage, but that's what you're attracted to.

You're like a fly who lands on garbage and claims this must be it.

Your vision and knowledge is so tiny and limited.

You're just like them, the preacher of garbage ......


Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 24, 2013 - 08:47am PT
Yeah, Jingy. No Memes or youtube videos that constitute an ad hominem attack. That is lowering the level of discourse.

Crazy day today.

Apr 24, 2013 - 09:43am PT
A look into a discursive mind at work

I was watching my screensaver, photo dissolving into next photo every six seconds. An old man in a rowboat in the marina, then purple crocus with dew and a sense of impending significance (maybe rising coffee level), and then sunburst through cloud.

I thought what it would be like to be up there above the cloud like the sun, looking back down at the photographer. It seemed a disorienting thought, considering the usual locating of self in the head, and considering I was the photographer, but by no means a new feeling. From movies we know what it feels like when the camera pulls back from an intimate scene, sometimes pulling waaaay back.

But what would it have been like for people born before books and movies and schools? Did they imagine looking back at themselves from great distance? How about if they had climbed to a high place and looked back into the valley where they lived.

Then I remembered my friend Bryan Burdo telling me about cleaning a route in the Cascades. Alone on a big rock face, wire-brushing, he suddenly saw himself as he would look from a great distance, a lunatic dwarfed by miles of rock and trees around him. But Bryan's dad was a Boeing test pilot and flew a small plane and Bryan knew well how that landscape looked from high up.

How about if you pulled the camera further back. A lot further.

I remembered early days with small computers, using simple programs to make random 2-dimensional patterns. It strikes you that the shape of the pattern wouldn't change with scale the way the shape of an ant would have to change if the ant got bigger. The random pattern could be the size of a universe instead of 8.5 by 11 inches.

Must the universe be randomly ordered? If it wasn't then the guiding principle that physics doesn't change with location would be suspect.

But then a perfectly regular pattern wouldn't change as you made it bigger, either.

So one must be careful. There is math and then there is mathematizing.

All those thoughts, if I can call them that, came and went fast, with not much input from my language chip, to borrow a phrase from Largo. I had to go back and pull them from memory and convert them to readable form.

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 24, 2013 - 09:53am PT

I still will put forward the notion that while you can search for no-thing, I can search for some-thing.

Both take rigorous approaches, both take a lot of effort, and both take a lot of thought.

I spent all morning searching the relationships of different rocks over multi state and multi basin areas. Everything was a 3-dimensional cube in my head that my mind could pick up, roll around, examine, and understand. I was asking questions.

It has taken a long time to reach the level of proficiency that I have reached, but I constantly learn new things. I was having some trouble with a certain play and spent an hour on the phone this morning with an expert who was willing to share some info that will never be published. I now understand the hypothesis that he is working. We test our hypothesis by drilling a well, and even if there is no oil or gas, each well is a data point that is filled with information.

Publications in Petroleum Geology are widespread, of course, but much of it lies in an individual mind or a group of minds who are working the same problem. It may never see the light of day.

It is ideas, it is thought experiments, it is understanding things like thermal maturity anomalies and how that relates to migration into certain overlooked zones. It is all about relationships. For instance the string of Devonian Shales that stretch from SW Texas to SE Canada were all deposited during the same anoxic setting. What does that mean? It correlates to an extinction event. What does that mean? How does permeability limit the migration of fluids with relationship to things such as capillary pressure at great depth? Where is the storage space?

It isn't easy.

North America did not resemble current North America during the Devonian. There are periods when continents all came together and sutured, such as Pangea, but that much Continental Crust created a heat flow problem, much as a blanket, and the mega continents will then separate with vast tectonic events. I know what the shoreline looked like during every time period going into the deep past. I understand the climatic and tectonic relationships as they are recorded in Sequences. It is like a Rubick's cube, and I am constantly tweaking it to understand the Big Picture.

I wish that I could publish, but the best reservoirs of knowledge reside in those who have worked a couple of decades since post grad work.

I still read at least one thesis each day, but the real wealth of knowledge is in private hands. This is a science with huge economic importance, and giving your answers to competitors just isn't done in capitalist countries.

What I am saying is that we work very deeply in thought, and dismissing it as scientism is downright insulting.

The search for knowledge is one of the greatest human pursuits, and your parsing and judgement of differing types of knowledge is way off base. You have to look at human knowledge as a complete and vaporous "thing" for lack of a better word. It spans huge spectrums, and to separate these mental efforts is creating a false dichotomy. It is full from one end to the other. From the external ruler to the internal search for meaning.

It is all thought. I know that many of you strive to reach a state of non-thought, and I admit that it is difficult to do, but what is the point other than happiness?

Happiness is a great thing and a worthy pursuit, but that is the arena that I see you and MikeL operating in. I think in terms of very real things with very precise qualities, but this is not so different from the work of a carpenter or a plumber. They have amassed an amount of practical knowledge. I take that information and look for connections and relationships, or even the lack thereof. There is no limit, yet, although many people assume that there is a limit to knowledge. If there is, we haven't reached it yet.

However, this has nothing to do with happiness. That is the arena that I see MikeL exploring. The entire point of Buddhism is happiness. You would have to be an idiot to think that the search for happiness is not a worthwhile pursuit, not suited at all to measurement.

I am saying that we are on the same side of the coin. The other side of the coin is willful ignorance. I see this a lot in religion. With religion you have a set of answers to many questions. There is no new knowledge. The hard core Christian does not pursue truth because he has limited his truth to a simple book, the Bible.

That is the point where you have all knowledge given to you in a handbook.

Questioning, thinking, understanding, it is all something that we are all doing here. There is no dichotomy of knowledge here. It is just the pursuit of knowledge.


Apr 24, 2013 - 10:17am PT
Thanks, Ed. I think I got some of that. Good explanation. I'll have to re-read your explanation a few times for better comprehension.

Some good posts here, and some kind words and respect. Kudos.

(Busy day today for me.)

Somewhere out there
Apr 24, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
Why do you keep putting up stupid sh!t like this Jingy?

 Maybe, just maybe its a clear window into the mind of the deeply religious.

Just like I've heard "We are no better than the worst among us".

Think of it as a mirror for the true believer

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 24, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
I’ve mentioned before Stanisaw Lem’s “Ergodic Theory of History”, in which he hypothesizes that in some circumstances minor variations along the temporal way would not preclude an outcome that is in a sense destined. I look upon the development of Nazi Germany as an example, where in the 1930s were someone to assassinate Hitler the Party or something similar would still develop and wreak havoc. In those times there was a “contractive” factor at work where people and events were strongly influenced by prevailing social thought and minor deviations from recorded history might prove irrelevant.

very true

climbing El Capitan being a good example...what's to prevent a climbing party from wandering off in various arbitrary directions across the rock, other than a preprogrammed intention to follow a particular line of features to the summit, never mind whatever challenges are encountered enroute?

political entities empowering Germany in that era are largely irrelevant to the visible leader selected, essentially a performer chosen for a combination of showmanship and extraordinary abilities to survive assassination attempts...i.e. think Houdini...

...unfortunately for the powers that be, this charismatic leader saw through his preprogramming and revolted and thus had to be defeated by those same political entities originally empowering him...

those same political entities are still at work in the world...only now with greater subtlety and patience and technology tools development and the benefit of lessons learned in a series of carefully engineered chaos scenarios...

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 24, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
the point is, that in all the changes in our understanding of mathematics, all the expansion in our knowledge... this theorem is still correct, it is still true, in exactly the same way it was in Euclid's time.

This is an amazing thing to ponder. On the humanist side, one only needs to read a few chapter of The Meditations, by Marcus Aurelius, written in 167 A.C.E., to realize our most basic human truths have not changed a lick in 2250 years. Marcus had exactly the same concerns as we have today, and his mind operated exactly the same as well. Everything changes; nothing changes.


Apr 24, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Tom, a rinpoche once quipped that a buddha could have reincarnated as Hitler so that the blowback would move minds and civilization forward. (Buddhists promote an idea of "skillful means.") It's difficult to tell what actions or behaviors are the right ones unless one can see into the future ad infinitum (claimed by some lamas). I think most of us experience that dilemma concretely in our daily lives, perhaps with children, fellow workers, lovers, and students. Even holding an intent towards compassion if fraught with thorns. Sometimes it is most compassionate to be stern, strict, and unyielding. Other times, it's best to avoid action altogether until a situation further coalesces. Who can tell what's skillful and what's not?

Hey, Base, most of the words thrown around by me and maybe Largo and others are code words. Even happiness. What I thought happiness was has shifted for me. For me "happiness" now translates to some kind of "understanding," which I think is seeing bigger, more fluid pictures of interrelationships. It's led to great hesitation saying that anything is bad or good, right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate anymore. Most everything seems to happen for a purpose from my point of view. I only "get it" after-the-fact. The more I understand, the fewer real questions I have. What I don't yet understand is a sense of inconceivable intelligence that I sense in everything. (You can call it what you want.)

Apr 24, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
Happiness is a code word?

Pure happiness is the true state of every living entity.

The living entity by its true nature is always "blissful".

When it comes in contact with the dual nature of the material world due to the misconception of falsely
identifying its material body as the self, it suffers the pangs of temporary happiness and distress.

The material body is the source of all misery ........


Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 24, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
he was himself of jewish descent

the real problem with jews was a proclivity for keeping wealth privately hidden away from banks and governments, thus undermining the political agenda for centralized control of all populations

at the time people were convinced insanity was a disease caused by germs

at the time people didn't know about psychedelics such as lsd

he was preprogrammed with secret briefings about an 'epidemic of insanity' spreading among people of jewish descent

he was convinced of this by viewing a series of many hidden-camera movies taken of ordinary jewish people going about their lives normally until they suddenly went insane (induced by surreptitious doses of lsd)

he was himself dosed and 'cured' in the intensive care of secret doctors

the proposed solution to prevent spreading of this phony 'epidemic of insanity' was the camps and genocide

convinced of the importance of 'saving humanity from insanity' he went along with this agenda for a while

he was himself 'protected' from the 'insanity disease' by doctors who kept him on a regimen of 'very rare and expensive' drugs, to keep him able to function

once in a position of power, he conducted his own secret research projects and determined there was in fact no such epidemic

he secretly used prestidigitation skills to avoid being himself dosed with drugs by his doctors, and quietly revolted against his handlers and the big agenda...with some degree of success...

he subsequently survived at least five serious assassination attempts, three of which were successful against body doubles

you will note that official history has rightfully not been kind to him (contrast hirohito)although he did pretty well set back the time-table for world domination

they are being much more careful about it this time

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 24, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Base, you can't search for no-thing. That's like a fish searching for water. It's generally too close to experience directly because our discursive minds are always seeking some thing. A good place to initially experience no-thing is in the space between thoughts, which over time you come to realize is the fundamental nature of mind, since the stuff we normally so ardently chase after is all impermanent.


Mckinleyville, Ca
Apr 24, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
@ Tom ^ ^

authoritarians/totalitarians learn from history

liberal democracy creates new opportunities for everybody

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 24, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Tom sounds like he has been reading Philip K. Dick.

The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 24, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
I use the terms in everyday conversations in much the same way I talked to my nieces and nephews about The Cat in the Hat--or the same way Jingy, Dr. F, and Cintune talk about myths and religion (sans the scorn).

Well, let's be clear, here, I actually love some myths and religions, the same way I love some art. Definitely not a fan of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic axis of passive-aggressive mind-control, but other than that, there's lots of great mythology out there to sample, from a thoroughly postmodern perspective. They're narratives drawn from human experience, and as such some of them resonate more than others. W.B. Yeats said that everyone is living out some myth or other, whether they know it or not.

Hey Base, cool article here: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21829144.600-rocks-reemerge-after-25-billion-years-in-mantle.html

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 24, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
reality is stranger than fiction

Mckinleyville, Ca
Apr 24, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
Largo says: you can’t search for no-thing. And possibly the hypen was installed specifically to prevent the kind of mischief we could have with the word nothing. I can’t think about the meaning of no-thing, though. It is above my pay grade. So I thought some other goofy stuff instead. I rushed in where smart people feared to tread... I admit this is all friendly humor. Forgive me for taking nothing lightly.

I think you’re serious about nothing, John
but I am being irreverent about nothing, so its okay.
what’s so special about nothing?
Is nothing new under the sun?
a few songs have been written about nothing in particular
Nothing is real and there’s nothing to get hungabout - that was John Lennon paving the way for another John L. (Strawberry Fields Forever)
words mean nothing
nothing created the Big Bang
don’t chase after nothing
don’t be afraid of nothing
When there’s too much of nothing, nobody should look –it is said Bob Dylan wrote that (Too Much of Nothing)
but if you don’t look, you'll see nothing

Pay no attention to these words, but consider the possibility that nothing will change
Once in a while I just feel curious about nothing

P.S. Hope the leg is progressing well.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 24, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Obstructing jobs, and obstructing fixing the economy is Patriotic???

Can you say this about the Keystone Pipeline? Or the failures of Fiskar/Solydra?

Or are you just stupid and fail to comprehend economics as it relates to gov't subsidy?
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