Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MH2

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 12:28am PT
^^ He's right up there, for a start.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 12, 2013 - 12:54am PT
Since people on this thread like to think about things, here's a good book review from the LA Times. The Summits of Modern Man: Mountaineering After the Enlightenment.
http://lareviewofbooks.org/article.php?type&id=1745&fulltext=1

It deals with a lot of interesting topics including the early history of mountaineering in the Alps, the episode between Sherpas and elite climbers on Everest this spring, and the whole culture created by the enlightenment with its elevation of man.

It seems we are now living in an era referred to as the Anthropozine or the expression I like better, the Anthropozoic.

"whether the Apocalypse comes via Christís return or rising ocean levels, itís the same view of history as inherently eschatological, and inherently anthropocentric. Like the Anthropozoic, the Anthropocene casts human action in the starring role, both as villain and as potential hero and savior"
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:09am PT
Ed recently gave the example of contemplating a mathematical issue, where one can spend hours not having a little voice in the head or constantly shifting one's attention, but rather standing back, as it were, from the conscious part of the mind and listening for whispers of a new construction built by the sub-conscious.

i think Ed's comment is right at the heart of this discussion


there are many paths up a tall mountain

from the summit is no further path upwards, only a view across the landscape

such is a zero point, landscape is visible, but no spacetime for words

The Silence...





(Largo seems too busy talking to take in the view)
WBraun

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:20am PT
there are many paths up a tall mountain

Not all lead to the top ......
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:26am PT
You're right, not all lead to the top but enough of them do that we have a good choice of paths and there's always the possibility to bushwhack your own.
WBraun

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:30am PT
there are many paths up a tall mountain

many are repelled by the mountain.

many get to the top but remain blind.

The top must still reveal itself for one to get full realization.

It's ultimately up to the top and not you to reveal itself.

This is why so many return and talk like Dr F ......
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:32am PT
There are summits and false summits.
WBraun

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:45am PT
There's only ONE real summit ......
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:46am PT
Credit: TomCochrane
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:48am PT
There's only ONE real summit ......

and it can be found at any point in the spacetime continuum
MH2

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:55am PT
^^^

Sounds almost like a theorem.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:57am PT
yes


basic unified field theorem
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:32am PT
Billy was a mountain.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:03am PT
Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

Psalm 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him

Romans 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Matthew 17:2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:21am PT
There are summits and false summits.

The summit is not the goal. Rather the process itself. Always. That is the difference between a climber and a summitbagger. Like racing motorbikes or bicycles. The checkered flag is not the goal. Getting the rigs tuned up and then riding the course to the best of ones ability is. Infinite progress. Not perfection.

Spirituality (infinite process of learning/experience without beginning nor end) and Religion (the summit/checkered flag insisting there is a beginning and an end).

The beauty of the spiritual trek is one infinitely seeks/desires nothing. Only walks observing and learning everything along the path. Taking nothing. Just leaving ones footsteps behind them. Soon to be blown away by the wind.

Spirituality inspires one to head into the storm. Taking on the experience and enjoying the energy of it all. Religion runs from the storm seeking shelter to avoid the perceived chaos and destruction. Ships are not built to weather out a storm tied up to a dock in the harbor.

Humanity grows more and more intelligent. Yet there is clearly more trouble and less happiness daily.

How can this be?

It is because intelligence is not the same as wisdom.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:38am PT
Chief - Spirituality has absolutely nothing to do with faith.
that is true of the spirituality/spiritual realm that you are involved with (and what others are describing and talking about on this thread). you can definitely open yourself up to/encounter that part of the spiritual realm.

i stated that we are body, soul and spirit. and someone asked about "spirit, spirituality, and the spiritual realm/universe (one of the two).

in a nutshell;
body - senses, etc
soul - personality, rationality, (mind, will emotions).
spirit - where we connect with God. a space/part of us all. people attempt to fill it with many things other than God (religion/spiritual realm, pursuits, fame and glory, money, drugs, etc).

spirituality - you can interact with the spiritual realm.

spiritual realm - there is a 4th dimension. i have interacted with it, particularly God, His attributes/personality, etc, but also other aspects of that spiritual realm on various occasions. and i have met with the top dog of this earthly spiritual realm face to face and with "eyes wide open". believe me, it/he is not what hollywood would have you believe. he is a very powerful being. and, he does have the power to offer you anything and everything that this world has to offer. and he did offer me just that. and i had absolutely no doubts that he could and did have the power to fulfill that offer. i didn't accept it. i believe it would have been impossible to refuse, without my knowing and having God the Holy Spirit within me. someday i will finish that story (perhaps) on the "Ghost" thread. believe me, he wasn't, and isn't a ghost.

without knowledge of and personal interaction with the one true God of this universe, you would be deceived by him (or his spiritual counterparts), he does present himself as a spirit of light. 'the father of all lies' is very adequate.

faith is of human origin.
FALSE!!!

you don't have a clue about faith, because you have none. you haven't experienced faith, and its powerful force. your simply clueless.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:59am PT
Infinite progress. Not perfection.


Well woo da thunk it. Turns out The Chief is a liberal progressive and not just some rank right winger after all! This thread is revelatory!
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:29am PT
Jan:

Oh, THAT enlightenment. Thought you meant the one that gets referred to most often here.

Thanks for the article / url. According to depth psychologists, in every age, man projects the state of the development of his consciousness onto the universe, and the reflections of the projection is then perceived as a verification of the projection. Insidious reification.

How difficult would it be to break that cycle / process? Is it possible to see things as they really are (whatever that might be)?


Almost everything tells us that we are small, insignificant, separate individuals--with obvious, reinforcing, and socially confirming perceptions--living in a vast and immensely complex external universe that arose from cyclic prime causes.

What a story. I suppose it could be stranger, but as stories go, it's highly inventive and perhaps overly complex. What genre would one put it in? Romance? Tragedy? Comedy? Irony? Science fiction? A slice of life? Multi-plot? Anti-plot?
MH2

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:35am PT
What a story. I suppose it could be stranger, but as stories go, it's highly inventive and perhaps overly complex. What genre would one put it in? Romance? Tragedy? Comedy? Irony? Science fiction? A slice of life? Multi-plot? Anti-plot?


Non-fiction.
WBraun

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:45am PT
splitter tells the world -- "you haven't experienced faith,"

Everyone has experienced it, everyone has it within them naturally.

The base jumper has faith he will not die.

It's the natural domain of all humanity .....
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